Anyone had like a $800 turntable and upgraded to a $2,000 plus turntable and notice much difference?

[Bob from Florida]

That's like saying it's okay for a cable company to carry on about liquidity et al as long as the product tests OK.

I disagree. It's a red flag indicating that they are doing sighted listening tests and 'hear' the usual nonsense when they try op amps etc.

I am disinclined to support companies that play that game.

Marketing sells goods. If a steak restaurant advertises their steaks as "tender, thick, and juicy" versus "a piece of burnt immature castrated bull" - which gets more customers to sample their goods? It sounds like you are assigning a "lack of virtue" to the company because of the described "red flag" that signals "sighted testing". Your motivations for support or not supporting products are yours and fine for yourself. Consider this: conducting a "sighted" test does not change whether a product works correctly. Conversely, conducting a "scientific" test does not change whether the same product works correctly either. The product works "as intended" or it does not. People being "people" - some are motivated by "strict scientific methods" while others like to be motivated by a little "bullshit". As a rule "the buyer should always beware" - in all things. However, since we are not talking about "life and death" here, it really is not all that much to get "excited" about.

 

[board]

By the way, about isolation:
In the past I used to have my turntable on an Audio Magic shelf with spikes mounted on a wall, but after I moved five years ago this was no longer a good option.
I had then heard about placing the turntable on a shelf on top of a half-inflated inner tube for a bicyle tyre that you then put on top of whatever furniture you were using standing on the floor.
I then tested this out by making a recording of a record that had a very long fade followed by a very long space to the next song. I first made a recording when the inner tube was half inflated and played Hans Zimmer's "Sea Wall" (from "Blade Runner 2049") very loudly through the speakers, as it has extremely powerful and deep bass. Afterwards I inflated the inner tube fully and made another recording.
It turned out that the fully inflated inner tube actually picked up less vibrations than the half-inflated tube.

Later, I moved again and bought a nice looking hifi rack from Amazon for around €100. I then did a test in the same way: Placing the turntable directly on top of the rack and do the recording, and then do the same but with the turntable on top of another shelf that I placed on the inner tube on top of the rack.
The result was also that the cartridge picked up less of the music when I used the inner tube.

So, this was a very cheap way of getting isolation + I actually felt peace of mind knowing that it worked because I did an actual test.

 

[Cwopete5]

That's like saying it's okay for a cable company to carry on about liquidity et al as long as the product tests OK.

I disagree. It's a red flag indicating that they are doing sighted listening tests and 'hear' the usual nonsense when they try op amps etc.

I am disinclined to support companies that play that game.

I believe the founder of Darlington Labs is a contributor at ASR. Maybe he can chime in. Personally, I let my ears be the judge of audio equipment. I did look at the ASR test on the Darlington Labs MM-5 but I was not dissuaded. For $179 dollars, the MM-5 sounds amazing and that's compared to some of the ASR recommended phono stages like the Cambridge Audio Alva Duo and Emotiva XPS-1. I owned both of those phono stages and really tried to like them, but ended up selling them. By comparison, I don't have to work at liking the MM-5. It really does sound that good.

 

[Newman]

Personally, I let my ears be the judge of audio equipment.

You have been here a while now, but your opinions don’t seem to have evolved since your first few posts, and still reflect the TAS/Stereophile mindset.

 

[Cwopete5]

You have been here a while now, but your opinions don’t seem to have evolved since your first few posts, and still reflect the TAS/Stereophile mindset.

My apologies for not meeting your standards. I'm trying to enjoy my music hobby without getting too overly technical. You see, I just retired after 40 years in the defense industry as a Sr. Principal Design Engineer. I've had more than my share of dealing with requirements, specifications and standards, measures of effectiveness, test cases, design reviews, land based testing, etc. etc. I dealt mostly with radars in my career. That's why I like the more simplistic approach to my music. If it sounds good to me, that's all the matters.

 

[Newman]

One doesn’t have to “deal with requirements, specifications and standards, measures of effectiveness, test cases, design reviews, land based testing” to simply accept the prevailing wisdom about when we are imagining sonic differences and when they are in the sound waves.

That’s not technical, that’s just grasping reality.

I’m simply noting for the benefit of anyone who reads your posts, about how vastly better the MM5 sounds than the Alva Duo, to beware that this is most likely not being detected in the sound waves at all.

 

[Cwopete5]

One doesn’t have to “deal with requirements, specifications and standards, measures of effectiveness, test cases, design reviews, land based testing” to simply accept the prevailing wisdom about when we are imagining sonic differences and when they are in the sound waves.

That’s not technical, that’s just grasping reality.

I’m simply noting for the benefit of anyone who reads your posts, about how vastly better the MM5 sounds than the Alva Duo, to beware that this is most likely not being detected in the sound waves at all.

"...we are imagining sonic differences and when they are in the sound waves. That’s not technical, that’s just grasping reality."

Well then, I must really out of touch with reality, seeing as I have a tube amp and I "imagine" it sounds better to my ears than the solid state amp in my other system.

...and with that, this horse is dead.

 

[Dustyc]

Too many variables here. Keeping the $800 base table and replacing the cartridge ($1200) would make a difference. Vacuum clamping would make a change. I've done both.

 

[Dustyc]

If you keep the cartridge the same then isolation of the base would make make the biggest difference. Especially if you have a basement under your room.
Transducers are where the money should be spent.

 

[dlaloum]

Turntables are subject to such a variety of influences (in terms of vibration/resonance) - that no 2 solutions are identical - there is no "perfect turntable".

And there is no "single solution" - as the particularities of an individuals TT platform, the floor below it, and the houses construction method around it, all have an influence - every setup therefore has to be "bespoke".

And as a result - no two setups are identical.

If you take a close look at a dozen differing TT designs, most of the differences tend to be in various types of vibration / resonance control.

You can yourself add many of these, some economically, some not so economically - but in most cases relatively economical changes can provide improvements in resonance control in a particular instance which commercially would cost thousands, and would only resolve issues for a small number of customers.

Hence - yes it is perfectly possible to get a well engineered relatively economical TT, properly fettle it for its resident location - and get results on a par and often surpassing the performance of turntables costing 10x as much... just paying $ and putting a turntable on your shelf, is a recipe for sad results... (in many cases).

 

[LouB]

Turntables are subject to such a variety of influences (in terms of vibration/resonance) - that no 2 solutions are identical - there is no "perfect turntable".

And there is no "single solution" - as the particularities of an individuals TT platform, the floor below it, and the houses construction method around it, all have an influence - every setup therefore has to be "bespoke".

And as a result - no two setups are identical.

If you take a close look at a dozen differing TT designs, most of the differences tend to be in various types of vibration / resonance control.

You can yourself add many of these, some economically, some not so economically - but in most cases relatively economical changes can provide improvements in resonance control in a particular instance which commercially would cost thousands, and would only resolve issues for a small number of customers.

Hence - yes it is perfectly possible to get a well engineered relatively economical TT, properly fettle it for its resident location - and get results on a par and often surpassing the performance of turntables costing 10x as much... just paying $ and putting a turntable on your shelf, is a recipe for sad results... (in many cases).

Interesting, I bought an economical TT (Rega P2) for the wife put it on shelf and it sounds great I wasn't expecting that I'm used to Hi-rez streaming & Cd's. It's not like the CD sound but it really surprised me how good it sounds. Maybe a stupid question, do I have a resonance sound/problem I'm not hearing ? The shelf it sits on is rock solid and anchored to the walls on 3 sides & It's plugged into a Marantz Model 40 which I've been told has a good phono preamp maybe that helps ?

 

[Tom C]

If you don’t hear it, it’s not a problem, imo.

 

[dlaloum]

Interesting, I bought an economical TT (Rega P2) for the wife put it on shelf and it sounds great I wasn't expecting that I'm used to Hi-rez streaming & Cd's. It's not like the CD sound but it really surprised me how good it sounds. Maybe a stupid question, do I have a resonance sound/problem I'm not hearing ? The shelf it sits on is rock solid and anchored to the walls on 3 sides & It's plugged into a Marantz Model 40 which I've been told has a good phono preamp maybe that helps ?

If it is sounding good - leave it alone and move on!!

If you suffer from OCD.... do some measurements and find the flaws (which may be below the threshold of audibility... but that's not the point!)

If using the built in phono preamp, then you are using an MM cartridge presumably (or MI or similar high inductance / high output design)...

Such cartridges (and I strongly favor them!) - are very sensitive to loading - chances of your setup achieving a close to flat frequency response when tested are relatively low... the phono stage will have a fixed R loading of 47k, and C loading of most likely 200pf.... to which you add the C load of the cable to the TT (between 100pf and 200pf is typical) - meaning, at a guess, you are probably running circa 300pf to 400pf

This will be about right for cartridges like Ortofon, it will be too high in C loading for AT cartridges, and other brands all vary....

So the "voicing" of your setup is dependent on a whole bunch of things (loading in particular) - all of which are not tuned, in your present setup, for a flat frequency response.

If it sounds good, I repeat, you probably should not mess with it, just enjoy it.

If you really really want to try for high fidelity, reproduction - then you will have to get involved in measurement, adjustable loading (or alternatively, digital EQ.... which has the same results as the older vintage loading approach!)

And this is all before you consider the vibrational/resonant environment.

For my JVC TT, I measured resonance, by turning off the motor, and gently resting the needle directly on the platter.... then I walked around the room, played some CD's, etc... and measured what was coming back through the phono stage from the cartridge....
This will give you a clear picture of what gets through from the environment... it is also easily repeatable, and you can adjust the platform, add absorbers/feet/whatever, and retest to see what works best. (this is difficult to do with some auto or semi-auto turntables... but most TT's allow you to move the arm without turning on the motor)

 

[LouB]

If you suffer from OCD.... do some measurements and find the flaws (which may be below the threshold of audibility... but that's not the point!)

Best thing I've read on ASR to date
Thanks for the info. (I am a bit OCD but don't have the tools to measure resonance) I was going to try out the AT- VM95ML cartridge just for fun & see how it sounds but maybe I should check to see what the C loading is on the Marantz. The Rega TT came with a "Rega carbon" cart. I read some where that they were made by AT but could be wrong there. Anyway looks like I'll dig into the loading aspect of things & maybe end just "leave it alone and move on" !

​

 

[dlaloum]

Best thing I've read on ASR to date
Thanks for the info. (I am a bit OCD but don't have the tools to measure resonance) I was going to try out the AT- VM95ML cartridge just for fun & see how it sounds but maybe I should check to see what the C loading is on the Marantz. The Rega TT came with a "Rega carbon" cart. I read some where that they were made by AT but could be wrong there. Anyway looks like I'll dig into the loading aspect of things & maybe end just "leave it alone and move on" !

​

The AT95 and all of its AT and OEM siblings (AT3400, ATVM95, Clearaudio Concept/Performance/Virtuoso/Maestro, Linn K9, etc...) - all use the same identical core body ("identical" - well there have been slight variances in inductance over the many many decades).

Styli are completely interchangeable - although in some renditions, the way it has been mounted, and the shaping of the stylus mount plastic, is designed to interfere with interchangeability....

Clearaudio resolved this by removing all the plastic except the "plug"....

What performance you get from any specific version of this great little cartridge, is therefore dependent on two things - 1) the stylus you have fitted and 2) the loading - and the loading will vary according to the stylus!!! - most people don't realise this! - loading is adjusting for the resonances generated primarily by the cantilever - the better the cantilever (lighter) the higher the resonant frequency - basic aluminium cantilevers will resonate at somewhere between 4kHz and 12kHz - exotic Boron/Sapphire cantilevers will resonate at 14kHz to 19Khz.... typically - the very very best, will have their resonance up beyond 20Khz. (I don't know of any exotic cantilever ATN95's other than Clearaudio at the moment... but it is a big market, and every so often one of the "retippers" will come out with things like that!)

Take a look at the top of the line Clearaudio Maestro's for what is possible with an AT95.... and if you fancy a beautifully crafted wooden body for your AT95 those are available on order, with your choice of exotic wood.... (yes in theory a wood body will alter some of the resonances present in the arm/cartridge system - in practice the biggest change is that it is heavier, and therefore affects the stylus / arm effective mass resonance - whether that is an improvement or a degradation depends on the compliance of the stylus and the mass of the arm!)

Like most things in "vinyl" - there is vast scope for customisation.... and in some cases that can result in improvements.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Very poor correlation between price and speed performence. All measured by me.