Anyone had like a $800 turntable and upgraded to a $2,000 plus turntable and notice much difference?

[digitalfrost]

I started out with a Pioneer turntable from the 80s, you could get it for about 20$. It was all plastic. I then put in a new cartridge, then upgraded to a Jico SAS stylus. That was about the biggest upgrade. The needle alone cost 160$. The turntable had a T4P mount and I wanted to try other cartridges so I bought a new one with Rega arm and VTA adjustment (that was important to me), but with a belt drive. If I had to do it again, I'd probably buy something with direct drive.

In any case the new turntable cost 1300€, then I put in a AT MC cartridge for 500€ and somewhere in between I got an adjustable phono pre as well that was 500€ (which is cheap for these). I think the cartridge/needle and phono pre make the biggest difference. The turntable was expensive as well but what was I supposed to do you can't get these things any cheaper unless you buy used.

I think if you have a turntable that has all the features you need, paying a lot more money is probably not worth it.

 

[Robin L]

If you used the same cartridge and phono amp, I am wondering how much of a difference would you notice between a mid level turntable and a higher end turntable. I would think part of the difference would be less vibrations? Hence the reason I purchased a Isoacoustic zaZen vibration reduction table for my turntable.

Oddly enough, the better the turntable, the closer the sound gets to digital.

From my own experience, there's low-level internal vibrations/resonances that are mostly determined by how much noise is generated by the turntable itself. I don't think an isolation table will alter the sonic performance as much as a different turntable will. A turntable is one of those devices that require absolute precision to compete with average digital performance, and the better/more expensive turntables address these issues. However, the new Technics 'tables seem to have the best specs right now, so I really think $100k 'tables are overkill.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Haven't had a turntable in years. Was a whole ecosystem with TT, arm, cartridge, and phono pre all mattering. Of all I heard or used I liked the Sota Star Sapphire vacuum hold down with a Souther linear tracking arm among the best. Though I drooled over my friend's Oracle nontheless. However, the one I owned the longest and being cost effective was the old Rega Planar 3 with Rega RB300 arm, a good MC cartridge and various good phono preamps. They have updated that and it is still available with sensible improvements in the basic design. You can get the Rega 3 with Rega 303 arm for about $1000. I don't know how it compares to other modern tables, but it likely is a pretty darn good simple table.

Still I would look for a deal on an old table, but then I have heard many of them and you don't have that experience. Some synergy is involved in matching everything up, and a simple table like the Rega with a good Rega arm takes care of lots of that for you.

 

[Jimshoe]

IME the law of diminishing returns hits hard as you spend more and more on vinyl.

 

[TBone]

However, the one I owned the longest and being cost effective was the old Rega Planar 3 with Rega RB300 arm, a good MC cartridge and various good phono preamps. They have updated that and it is still available with sensible improvements in the basic design. You can get the Rega 3 with Rega 303 arm for about $1000. I don't know how it compares to other modern tables, but it likely is a pretty darn good simple table.

Had a orig P2 w rb200 & rb300 arms. the orig p2 was imo 1 of the most overrated tt of all time. (the orig rega planer cdp was also vastly coloured & imo overrated, but thats another story)

the orig P2 had its extremely noisy motor "isolated" by mounting belt ... brutal idea as it not only transmitted huge vibration into chassi, it introduced timing issues. Rega abandoned this setup for a more direct coupled motor and better ps.

the orig p2 and its noisy motor was what got me started modding tables, it HAD to be modded to sound decent ... soon abandoned it and never looked back.

still own the rb300 tho, since replaced & retired ... excellent arm for $.

Edit: orig P2 not orig P3 ...

 

[TBone]

I think the cartridge/needle and phono pre make the biggest difference.

Imo, tho very important, the cart is the least important of the three.

 

[TBone]

... don't think an isolation table will alter the sonic performance as much as a different turntable will.

It won't alter anything if the turntable is a compromised affair ... otherwise its isolation characteristics r an easy measure...

A turntable is one of those devices that require absolute precision to compete with average digital performance.

sigh ... maybe your tt competed against just "average" digital components ... mine competes positively against a top linn, a sony pro dac/mac, and a topping e30 (which was recently returned).

 

[Angsty]

IME the law of diminishing returns hits hard as you spend more and more on vinyl.

I’m not sure that it’s much worse than digital. Seems to me that once you get above a $150 Topping, audible performance gains flatten considerably, even if you can eek out better measurements.

 

[TBone]

I’m not sure that it’s much worse than digital. Seems to me that once you get above a $150 Topping, audible performance gains flatten considerably, even if you can eek out better measurements.

... luved the convenience of the topping e30 with the android/pi, its intent in my system was partially related to SQ but that wasn't really key ... we (unit not mine) had certain reservations and issues with the e30, more in my system than the owner, who has since decided to return it ...

 

[Bob from Florida]

I won't be able to test it. Most responses have been people not really into turntables so far. I have a Dual CS 5000 turntable with grado cartridge. I could get a Rega Planar 6 turntable with mm cartridge so I can still use my mm phono preamp in my NAD preamp. Thinking this maybe a good option without going to higher costly turntables like a VPI Scout 21 and cartridge which would be at least $1,000 more.

You could go with the Technics newest version of the 1200 but the tonearm is the weak point - pluses and minuses like anything else. However, if I were you I would get one of these. This table is made by Clearaudio for Marantz and comes with a great cartridge. The arm is their Satisfy - which is a great arm. The motor is AC synchronous and decoupled with a different pulley for 45 rpm. Everything is simple and should provide a lifetime of reliability. Best of all you get 60 days to evaluate from Music Direct - no risk and it will answer your questions.

 

[Angsty]

If you used the same cartridge and phono amp, I am wondering how much of a difference would you notice between a mid level turntable and a higher end turntable. I would think part of the difference would be less vibrations? Hence the reason I purchased a Isoacoustic zaZen vibration reduction table for my turntable.

If you want to know more about the measured differences in turntables and cartridges, I recommend the reviews and measurements in HiFi News magazine. They are one of the few that still perform useful measurements on those components and publish them digitally without a paywall. You can correlate the measured differences to the subjective reviews at your own discretion.

Looking at cartridge distortion curves has been a real eye-opener for me and has helped to put other audio measurements in better context.

 

[TBone]

... milleraudioresearch.com ... many excellent cart measures, inc my fav. tracking/distortion per different vta ...

 

[JP]

Technics newest version of the 1200 but the tonearm is the weak point - pluses and minuses like anything else.

Which are?

 

[kschmit2]

instead, much better tool ...

decade old cell&app = handy accelerometer ... just tap any structure in question and measure at will...
View attachment 192573

For Iphone and Android users, there's Phyphox for example that gives you access to all sensors in the phone. The sensors are ultra sensitive.

See here for details: https://phyphox.org/download/

 

[TBone]

Which are?

heard and played with enough technics tables, ive always thought the arm a weak link. that said, archived in my stash of vinyl rips is a noted sudiophile modded kab 1200 with technics arm, a unit he preferred to his vacuum sota (was never a fan of this particular table) & sme5 arm. it inc. very high dr rip of pf the wall ... and if memory serves ... it measured (compared to the very same cd master) quite accurately in terms of dr and fr ... so i can understand why he felt the 1200 potentially better than his vastly more expensive table ...

For Iphone and Android users, there's Phyphox for example that gives you access to all sensors in the phone. The sensors are ultra sensitive.

See here for details: https://phyphox.org/download/

very sensitive, been using my cell as a tool since near forever ... that said... not all apps & cells calibrate & show accurate results, many work well but always crash ... my old samsung 3 tho rarely fails, a must-have tool in my playbook.

 

[Angsty]

... milleraudioresearch.com ... many excellent cart measures, inc my fav. tracking/distortion per different vta ...

Yes, Paul Miller is the one who does the testing for HiFi News.

 

[JP]

heard and played with enough technics tables, ive always thought the arm a weak link. that said, archived in my stash of vinyl rips is a noted sudiophile modded kab 1200 with technics arm, a unit he preferred to his vacuum sota (was never a fan of this particular table) & sme5 arm. it inc. very high dr rip of pf the wall ... and if memory serves ... it measured (compared to the very same cd master) quite accurately in terms of dr and fr ... so i can understand why he felt the 1200 potentially better than his vastly more expensive table ...

Nice story, don't get me wrong, but isn't in the context of the question, nor does it answer it.

 

[DYgBbEqeqaEy]

Turntable technology peaked in the mid-80s. The advent of CD and digital meant that R&D evaporated. The so-called "high-end" turntables today do not compare to what you could get back then

This seems to be true.
Witness the Nakamichi TX-1000 (and later Dragon CT), that actually solved a problem.

Today's turntables are like high-end cables, low or no engineering efforts loaded with BS materials to justify ridiculous pricing. Great example from Stereophile:

• The $150,000 SAT XD-1: "This extraordinary and extraordinarily expensive Swedish turntable begins life as a Technics SP-10R direct-drive motor system...The platter's top layer is made from a 'proprietary advanced technical polymer infused with carbon-fiber micro powder and UHM carbon nanotubes'"

My takeaway from that is they did not even have the in-house expertise to design their own motor.

 

[TBone]

Nice story, don't get me wrong, but isn't in the context of the question, nor does it answer it.

K ... how about this ... i consider it a good enough arm ... but ime arms with removable headshell assemblies and all its inherited variances, like the three bears ... never truly rigid, some loose, some tighter, some introduce different resonance, and perhaps the most misunderstood of all, every time u remove a headshell and reapply, it requires azimuth adjustment ... something ive rarely seen done in the field ...

 

[JP]

K ... how about this ... i consider it a good enough arm ... but ime arms with removable headshell assemblies and all its inherited variances, like the three bears ... never truly rigid, some loose, some tighter, some introduce different resonance, and perhaps the most misunderstood of all, every time u remove a headshell and reapply, it requires azimuth adjustment ... something ive rarely seen done in the field ...

Right. So you've an issue with arms that use removable headshells whether the issues you describe actually manifest in meaningful ways or not. Understood.

The person I asked the question of cited the new Technics arms specifically, which was the context/scope of my question.