Are Integrated DACs Bad Investments?

[watchnerd]

[The following probably only applies to music systems, not to AVRs / HT]

An increasing number of integrated amps have come to market either with a fixed DAC built-in or with a 'DAC module' that can purchased as an optional add-on.

But are these ever a good investment?

I'm starting to think more and more the answer is 'no' because:

1. DAC technologies change quickly, and new software (MQA, AptX) comes out with some regularity

2. A lot of integrated DACs seem to have mediocre performance

3. External DACs with near flawless performance can be had for <$200

4. Internal DAC boards are often pricey

5. Good external DACs are small enough to hide

I used to think I wanted all-in-one, but now I've come full circle and am starting to believe digital separates are a more sensible system architecture

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Rapid change and obsolescence is not new to the audio world and people were bitching about it even in the 1950s. But, yes, I think the more modular a system can be, the better. Things like power amplifiers aren't going to change enough to make older units unusable, but DACs, especially ones with streaming services built in are a good candidate for the modular route.

 

[NiagaraPete]

All audio equipment is a bad investment with a few exceptions.

 

[Doodski]

[The following probably only applies to music systems, not to AVRs / HT]

An increasing number of integrated amps have come to market either with a fixed DAC built-in or with a 'DAC module' that can purchased as an optional add-on.

But are these ever a good investment?

I'm starting to think more and more the answer is 'no' because:

1. DAC technologies change quickly, and new software (MQA, AptX) comes out with some regularity

2. A lot of integrated DACs seem to have mediocre performance

3. External DACs with near flawless performance can be had for <$200

4. Internal DAC boards are often pricey

5. Good external DACs are small enough to hide

I used to think I wanted all-in-one, but now I've come full circle and am starting to believe digital separates are a more sensible system architecture

Separates can be resold, collected, repurposed etc etc. Much better than a old DAC module that can only be sold to a likewise amplifier and owner.

 

[watchnerd]

All audio equipment is a bad investment with a few exceptions.

Gradations of bad, in this case.

 

[ZolaIII]

First off all a lot of them need an integrated DAC (if they receive any kind of digital signal as part of product's function) so that they can be called finished products. Integrated one needs to be up to the task and doesn't need to be better than amplifier it self, I mean it's not you can get a theoretic loses in transport like with external one.
Which DAC technology's? There's PCM and DSD (multibit and all) but nothing really new. Those you mentioned are actually (lossy) codecs and nothing more I hope you don't intend to buy another DAC IC whenever they add a ASIC's for some crapp like that (which can be done on more generic core's).
When it's absolute or if you don't have one go and buy the most suitable solution that is present and works good.

 

[charleski]

[The following probably only applies to music systems, not to AVRs / HT]

An increasing number of integrated amps have come to market either with a fixed DAC built-in or with a 'DAC module' that can purchased as an optional add-on.

But are these ever a good investment?

I'm starting to think more and more the answer is 'no' because:

1. DAC technologies change quickly, and new software (MQA, AptX) comes out with some regularity

Well there was a big shift with the introduction of delta-sigma, which only really got properly refined by the turn of the century. But since then the major advances have involved reducing the cost of the technology. Further improvements in DAC technology have largely involved tying together multiple channels to reduce distortion, which becomes more widespread as the base technology becomes cheaper. I don't see the prospect for any further real breakthroughs in this area.

MQA ... is not going to concern anyone who wants good sound.
AptX and other bluetooth technologies are convenience features. It is possible that someone will come up with a short-range wireless technology that doesn't involve any compression, in fact I expect that there's a fair amount of research going on for that, as it's a possible growth segment. But this means that the DAC and amp are actually contained in the headphones, and all you need is a suitable transmitter in the machine serving up the audio data.

2. A lot of integrated DACs seem to have mediocre performance

3. External DACs with near flawless performance can be had for <$200

4. Internal DAC boards are often pricey

5. Good external DACs are small enough to hide

This is the real problem. $1500 add-in DAC boards are nothing more than an exercise in upselling. If you're smart you just buy the parts you want: a decent amp in a nice presentable case. But a lot of audio companies rely on the fact that many people aren't smart and are easily led astray by promises of magic.

I think the real answer is that most of these all-in-one systems are really aimed at the lifestyle factor. People want one box that they can plug everything into and have done with it, and they may be prepared to pay an unreasonable premium to get that.

 

[watchnerd]

MQA ... is not going to concern anyone who wants good sound.

This is an interesting conundrum.

Tidal is my only paid-for streaming service and they've been expanding more and more the tracks that are mastered in MQA and nothing else.

So if something I want to listen to is only available in MQA, am I better of listening through an MQA-capable DAC or through (what I do now) some half-unfolded version?

I'm not an MQA fan, but sometimes that's what is there.

 

[Martin Takamine]

For about 20 years I would assemble and upgrade my computers with the latest hardware but finally stopped in 2016. But in that same time I could have performed all I needed to do using an off-the-shelf PC. It's the same with audio, I can play all the music I want with an integrated amp w/ DAC but at the moment I prefer separate components. Maybe in a few years I'll just be satisfied with a Bluetooth speaker and my phone.

 

[ZolaIII]

It's better to say to it all together no thanks. That's the problem with property solutions when they don't really give you a choice. Go end explorer Wavepack instead if you are interested in high end lossy solution which I find much better.

 

[NiagaraPete]

This is an interesting conundrum.

Tidal is my only paid-for streaming service and they've been expanding more and more the tracks that are mastered in MQA and nothing else.

So if something I want to listen to is only available in MQA, am I better of listening through an MQA-capable DAC or through (what I do now) some half-unfolded version?

I'm not an MQA fan, but sometimes that's what is there.

Are the tracks not available another way?

 

[Kevinfc]

A dac has become a chip level feature rather than a separate component.

 

[Wunderphones]

Separates are clearly the way. There's no reason a good amp won't run for several decades; why artificially hasten its obsolescence by tying it to digital domain components that you might be tempted to replace in a much shorter span?

I think the strongest example of this error is DAPs--where you aren't just tied to the shorter life span of digital components, but to the *much* shorter life span of lithium ion batteries.

 

[watchnerd]

Are the tracks not available another way?

Sure, there are other means.

I could get the CD and rip it to FLAC and then put it on my NAS.

Sign up for another streaming service.

etc.

But there comes a limit to how much I'd bother if it's just a one-off listen.

 

[charleski]

So if something I want to listen to is only available in MQA, am I better of listening through an MQA-capable DAC or through (what I do now) some half-unfolded version?

The only thing an MQA-capable DAC does is use an ultra-short leaky filter to simulate the presence of further ultrasonics through aliasing. Since the ‘first unfold’ process has already produced a 96kHz signal using the lossy compression hidden in the low-order bits this doesn’t do too much damage.

 

[sweetchaos]

Great poll question.

 

[watchnerd]

Great poll question.

Just straight up Yes / No?

 

[sweetchaos]

Yep, but I would clarify in the title first:
"For music systems (not for AVRs / Home Theater), are integrated DACs bad investments?"

or something like:
What would you buy for a stereo music system (not home theater)?
1. Integrated system
2. Separates

 

[Blumlein 88]

I think separates are better for an enthusiast of top quality sound. Not just DACs, but most parts of the system.

 

[watchnerd]

Yep, but I would clarify in the title first:
"For music systems (not for AVRs / Home Theater), are integrated DACs bad investments?"

or something like:
What would you buy for a stereo music system (not home theater)?
1. Integrated DAC
2. Separates

Done