Are we hitting a bump in the golden age of cheap audio electronics?

[IAtaman]

It used to be that there were expensive audio electronics and cheap ones, and you never knew what exactly you were compromising if you got a cheap one.

Then a few things changed.

Well, first, globalization happened.

Then high performance ICs were built, which freed the manufacturers from the most of the detailed, hard to do engineering work, allowing them to focus on implementation and actual manufacturing processes, making it possible to manufacture high performance audio devices for the fraction of the cost.

Then, lead by ASR, audio equipment measurement sites showed people that they are not compromising on sound quality by buying these cheap products.

Result of that was the golden age of cheap audio electronics.

But it feels like we are hitting the top of the curve these days. The reason I think that is because I suspect most people who wanted a cheap good DAC already have one, and the newer DACs do not really offer any reason to buy them over the ones we already have. I think we might be looking at dropping sales now, and unless they can bring a meaningful innovation to the market, I am not sure what will Topping, SMSL and Fosi and others be selling next year to keep their companies running.

Does this make sense to you?

 

[Berwhale]

The reason I think that is because I suspect most people who wanted a cheap good DAC already have one

Really? Everyone out of the 8.1 billion people on the planet? Does everyone in Asia and Africa already own their 'end game' DAC?

Continent	Population (2021)[1][2][3]	% of world	±% p.a. (2010–2013)
World	7,909,295,151	100%	1.17%
Asia	4,694,576,167	59.4%	1.04%
Africa	1,393,676,444	17.6%	2.57%
Europe	745,173,774	9.4%	0.08%
North America	595,783,465	7.5%	0.96%
South America	434,254,119	5.5%	1.06%
Oceania	44,491,724	0.6%	1.47%
Antarctica	0	0%	0%

List of continents and continental subregions by population - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, Merry Christmas!

 

[MCH]

It used to be that there were expensive audio electronics and cheap ones, and you never knew what exactly you were compromising if you got a cheap one.

Then a few things changed.

Well, first, globalization happened.

Then high performance ICs were built, which freed the manufacturers from the most of the detailed, hard to do engineering work, allowing them to focus on implementation and actual manufacturing processes, making it possible to manufacture high performance audio devices for the fraction of the cost.

Then, lead by ASR, audio equipment measurement sites showed people that they are not compromising on sound quality by buying these cheap products.

Result of that was the golden age of cheap audio electronics.

But it feels like we are hitting the top of the curve these days. The reason I think that is because I suspect most people who wanted a cheap good DAC already have one, and the newer DACs do not really offer any reason to buy them over the ones we already have. I think we might be looking at dropping sales now, and unless they can bring a meaningful innovation to the market, I am not sure what will Topping, SMSL and Fosi and others be selling next year to keep their companies running.

Does this make sense to you?

What you say is true when it comes to the most simple form stereo rig, but they still have a lot to do in terms of features, and solutions for more complex setups.
Take as example the recent success of wiim. I believe there is game for a few years more.

 

[IAtaman]

Really? Everyone out of the 8.1 billion people on the planet? Does everyone in Asia and Africa already own their 'end game' DAC?

Continent	Population (2021)[1][2][3]	% of world	±% p.a. (2010–2013)
World	7,909,295,151	100%	1.17%
Asia	4,694,576,167	59.4%	1.04%
Africa	1,393,676,444	17.6%	2.57%
Europe	745,173,774	9.4%	0.08%
North America	595,783,465	7.5%	0.96%
South America	434,254,119	5.5%	1.06%
Oceania	44,491,724	0.6%	1.47%
Antarctica	0	0%	0%

List of continents and continental subregions by population - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Also, Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas!

No, I don't think all the 8 Billion people got their DAC.

What I am suggesting is that maybe the big sales boom is behind us, the sales numbers will start decreasing now unless something new comes and convinces the people to buy new DACs and amps again. I am not sure if that is true, I am merely suggesting.

Here is an example, iPhone sales volumes per year I found on the net.

I am suggesting maybe we are at 2015 now, and drop in sales will probably be more dramatic. That drop in sales numbers, that did not happen because all 8.1B people got an iPhone. That happaned because most people who wanted an iphone already had one and did not see a reason to upgrade to the newer model. that is what I am saying.

 

[IAtaman]

What you say is true when it comes to the most simple form stereo rig, but they still have a lot to do in terms of features, and solutions for more complex setups.
Take as example the recent success of wiim. I believe there is game for a few years more.

Yes exactly. I think they need to do something different maybe in the lines of Wiim, but I don't think they are. Look at D90SE or SU-X - its all the same.

 

[OldTimer]

I think we are at the beginning of the cheap high quality reliable audio. Previously I always buy japanese brand. Beginning last year, I was buying SMSL DAC. This year, I am buying Fosi amp. Not only in Audio but in Video (TV) also TCL.

 

[valerianf]

To answer to @IAtaman first post, I do not think that it is mandatory buying a Dac to be able to listent to music. There is already a Dac in my car, my phone, my Tv, my Avr, my computer...
Real point is may be we are in the golden edge of nomade music players. However this started with the Walkman from Sony long time ago.
If we look at non nomad music systems, we are in a full peak inflation.
A stereo amp or an Avr have never been so expensive.
In the 80's, students were able to buy a stereo amplifier and large speakers to make parties.
Nowadays they are listening music with an iPhone and some earbuds.
Is it a progress?
As we are on this forum, numbers are important.
An earbud even from Apple will never reach the quality level of a Celestion Ditton class speaker sound.

 

[Galliardist]

The next big thing will be augmented reality, at a guess. This could include something like Atmos or Google's version of Ambisonics in the headset, with virtual big screen or objects floating in the living room.

That will lead to more use of multichannel in other devices and improvements over what we have now in terms of surround players for headphones and such, simply because for AR, they actually have to work well in combination with virtual images.

The age of those cheap stereo DACs is therefore coming to an end, almost certainly. I expect earbuds to evolve to something different, that will play the audio part of the AR technology, over the next few years.

Things are about to get very interesting, and true disruption of the audio industry is just starting.

 

[Down South]

Are Apple mobiles really so much better than mobiles from other companies or is it the case that consumer brainwashing is at work with these grossly over priced products just like Nike et al.

Merry Christmas!

No, I don't think all the 8 Billion people got their DAC.

What I am suggesting is that maybe the big sales boom is behind us, the sales numbers will start decreasing now unless something new comes and convinces the people to buy new DACs and amps again. I am not sure if that is true, I am merely suggesting.

Here is an example, iPhone sales volumes per year I found on the net.

View attachment 336915

I am suggesting maybe we are at 2015 now, and drop in sales will probably be more dramatic. That drop in sales numbers, that did not happen because all 8.1B people got an iPhone. That happaned because most people who wanted an iphone already had one and did not see a reason to upgrade to the newer model. that is what I am saying.

Marketing is a form of brainwashing, perfected long ago by a certain Dr. G. Apple/Nike. A Dutch friend who was an IT man long ago used to joke that many of his colleagues bought Apple phones but never used most of their features, same for other mobiles as well. That they had been brainwashed that 'they just had to have them'. Ever noticed that a lot of people who buy expensive Nike/Adidas et al trainers were actually very unfit slobs - they didn't buy them for their intended purpose but to look 'cool'.

Maybe the brainwashed are waking up and deprogramming themselves - huge implications for world markets.

 

[DSJR]

Happy Holidays all -

It'll be interesting to see how the very expensive high end/snakeoil side of our industry fares as the boomers pass away. Will it continue when peeps (men) in their forties start having money available to indulge themselves with flash gear?

The existing situation since the noughties appears to be a market flushed with once exalted audio gear still working well even at twenty years old and now reasonably priced which seems to have all but killed the mid range new-gear market. Why I asked a while ago about performance of Theta dacs from the 90's (maybe not much better than an Apple dongle these days?) and we've discussed the Yamaha ancestors to the 301/501/701 amps for example, nice examples of which can sometimes be got here for under a hundred quid along with other boxes from Rotel and selected Technics and Sony...

Speakers are more difficult as they can age and alter from new for a variety of reasons. The UK did at one time lead in the smaller high quality market for our smaller rooms and KEF, B&W and Mordaunt-Short had some seriously good ranges which may still be serviceable. Proper big speakers went out of fashion here a long time ago sadly

 

[TonyJZX]

would you not say the same thing about a lot of areas of consumer electronics?

i have a 4k60 50" LCD tv that cost something like $199 usd bought well prior to covid that keeps on trucking

i bought a cheap 5g $100 mobile phone that is fhd 4gb/128gb and really does everything so well i question why anyone needs a $2,000 iphone 15

as far as our chosen hobby i think you can set up a nice 6" bookshelf system with a $100 TPA3255 amp + a SMSL dac and you're really set for the forseeable future... AND if you're not well you've spend $100 on an amp and $100 on a dac and so... is this spending going to matter to you? dont think so

for these consumer items i guess its the chinese who are responsible for it

but its the other things in western life that kills you... ie. i think i'm paying around $1,500 usd just for the privilege of having a vehicle on the road.... that's registration, medical insurance, vehicle insurance etc.

there's an old saying here... if you want something cheap and shit, ask the chinese (there's nothing wrong with this... at worst you lost a little money)

if you want something well built and good value, ask the chinese

if you want to your wallet taken, talk to anyone local authority.... one is discretionary, one is mandatory

 

[Vacceo]

Happy Holidays all -

It'll be interesting to see how the very expensive high end/snakeoil side of our industry fares as the boomers pass away. Will it continue when peeps (men) in their forties start having money available to indulge themselves with flash gear?

The existing situation since the noughties appears to be a market flushed with once exalted audio gear still working well even at twenty years old and now reasonably priced which seems to have all but killed the mid range new-gear market. Why I asked a while ago about performance of Theta dacs from the 90's (maybe not much better than an Apple dongle these days?) and we've discussed the Yamaha ancestors to the 301/501/701 amps for example, nice examples of which can sometimes be got here for under a hundred quid along with other boxes from Rotel and selected Technics and Sony...

Speakers are more difficult as they can age and alter from new for a variety of reasons. The UK did at one time lead in the smaller high quality market for our smaller rooms and KEF, B&W and Mordaunt-Short had some seriously good ranges which may still be serviceable. Proper big speakers went out of fashion here a long time ago sadly

I mentioned a couple times that the largest challenge the hi fi industry faces is people on their 40's with a very diminished buying power.

 

[jmillar]

Companies such as Topping, SMSL, Fosi, WiiM etc have a clear run ahead of them in the amplifier segment: Fosi's success with the v3 and their recently released higher power bridged devices are pointing the way. Topping has broken the barrier for reference grade audio amplification at affordable prices. Once durability and reliability is firmly established growth will explode. Recent market trends show that high quality EQ will give all devices an additional layer of desirability at affordable prices. In the streaming audio field devices from WiiM will take over a growing market segment that Node and Sonos will struggle to retain. Portable streamers and amps have a long way ahead of them as prices are still high-ish. Good, accessible IEMs are already "a thing". Sundaras have set the new standard for excellent, affordable headphones.

The only component that is still struggling to attain affordable excelence is the loudspeaker.

 

[IAtaman]

Companies such as Topping, SMSL, Fosi, WiiM etc have a clear run ahead of them in the amplifier segment: Fosi's success with the v3 and their recently released higher power bridged devices are pointing the way. Topping has broken the barrier for reference grade audio amplification at affordable prices. Once durability and reliability is firmly established growth will explode. Recent market trends show that high quality EQ will give all devices an additional layer of desirability at affordable prices. In the streaming audio field devices from WiiM will take over a growing market segment that Node and Sonos will struggle to retain. Portable streamers and amps have a long way ahead of them as prices are still high-ish. Good, accessible IEMs are already "a thing". Sundaras have set the new standard for excellent, affordable headphones.

The only component that is still struggling to attain affordable excelence is the loudspeaker.

On the amplifier front, I thought what can be squeezed out of TIs Class D Chips are already squeezed no?

For loudspeakers, it might not be that bad. Ernc had a video recently, talking about best speakers of 2023. I think it is worth watching.

 

[Vacceo]

Companies such as Topping, SMSL, Fosi, WiiM etc have a clear run ahead of them in the amplifier segment: Fosi's success with the v3 and their recently released higher power bridged devices are pointing the way. Topping has broken the barrier for reference grade audio amplification at affordable prices. Once durability and reliability is firmly established growth will explode. Recent market trends show that high quality EQ will give all devices an additional layer of desirability at affordable prices. In the streaming audio field devices from WiiM will take over a growing market segment that Node and Sonos will struggle to retain. Portable streamers and amps have a long way ahead of them as prices are still high-ish. Good, accessible IEMs are already "a thing". Sundaras have set the new standard for excellent, affordable headphones.

The only component that is still struggling to attain affordable excelence is the loudspeaker.

I think that the only element holding back cheaper multichannel systems is how difficult Dolby/DTS decoding is. With that element being s non-issue, nothing stops Topping or any other manufacturer from making great avr's.

 

[Robin L]

As long as we are on the subject - what's the best really cheap desktop amplifier? Got a pair of a/d/s 400 speakers I gave to a friend that need an amp.

 

[pablolie]

It used to be that there were expensive audio electronics and cheap ones, and you never knew what exactly you were compromising if you got a cheap one.

Then a few things changed.

Well, first, globalization happened.

Then high performance ICs were built, which freed the manufacturers from the most of the detailed, hard to do engineering work, allowing them to focus on implementation and actual manufacturing processes, making it possible to manufacture high performance audio devices for the fraction of the cost.

Then, lead by ASR, audio equipment measurement sites showed people that they are not compromising on sound quality by buying these cheap products.

Result of that was the golden age of cheap audio electronics.

But it feels like we are hitting the top of the curve these days. The reason I think that is because I suspect most people who wanted a cheap good DAC already have one, and the newer DACs do not really offer any reason to buy them over the ones we already have. I think we might be looking at dropping sales now, and unless they can bring a meaningful innovation to the market, I am not sure what will Topping, SMSL and Fosi and others be selling next year to keep their companies running.

Does this make sense to you?

Makes total sense to me.

But I'd add it's not only DACs anymore.

Stuff like the original KEF LS50 disrupted the speaker landscape as well. Now there are plenty speakers in the $2k range that -especially coupled with a capably set-up sub- make any investment above subject to the law of very diminishing results. Amps also going theough the same - Topping makes the best measuring power amps here, and stuff like the humble NAD D3020 also sets a high bar many far more expensive intergrated amps don't meet.

 

[bloodshoteyed]

I think that the only element holding back cheaper multichannel systems is how difficult Dolby/DTS decoding is. With that element being s non-issue, nothing stops Topping or any other manufacturer from making great avr's.

as i've said before, it's not the hardware that's holding the chinese back, it's licensing

 

[egellings]

It used to be that there were expensive audio electronics and cheap ones, and you never knew what exactly you were compromising if you got a cheap one.

Then a few things changed.

Well, first, globalization happened.

Then high performance ICs were built, which freed the manufacturers from the most of the detailed, hard to do engineering work, allowing them to focus on implementation and actual manufacturing processes, making it possible to manufacture high performance audio devices for the fraction of the cost.

Then, lead by ASR, audio equipment measurement sites showed people that they are not compromising on sound quality by buying these cheap products.

Result of that was the golden age of cheap audio electronics.

But it feels like we are hitting the top of the curve these days. The reason I think that is because I suspect most people who wanted a cheap good DAC already have one, and the newer DACs do not really offer any reason to buy them over the ones we already have. I think we might be looking at dropping sales now, and unless they can bring a meaningful innovation to the market, I am not sure what will Topping, SMSL and Fosi and others be selling next year to keep their companies running.

Does this make sense to you?

It looks like the compact, switch-mode type of product has solved the problems of audio reproduction, with just about flawless performance and products made with a handful of inexpensive semiconductors and a few passive components. Often, the finished device's packaging, such as a chassis, costs more than the handful of components the chassis supports. Once distortion is far below audibility and power can be cheaply had in any amount, new product sales will have to be motivated by attractions other than audio performance. Packaging, modes of control of functionality and appearance will be the biggest differentiations. Audio is now a problem that has been solved over and over again.

 

[Somafunk]

Are Apple mobiles really so much better than mobiles from other companies or is it the case that consumer brainwashing is at work with these grossly over priced products just like Nike et al.

I moved to Apple products back in 2001/02 (iMac G3) as I was annoyed at my utter shite windows based pc that needed constant updates, searching for drivers etc and the blue screen of death - fucking hateful operating system. Been Mac ever since and I’ve not had one fail/restart/screen freeze/malfunction in 21 years use so take yer brainwashing and apply it as a salve to your butthurt soul