Audyssey's Next Generation of Room Correction (MultEQ-X)

[Sal1950]

Never tried this but if you were to place 2 subs in different locations in a room and then EQ'd each individually at the MLP.
Then measured them both playing back at the same time, would the result still flat at the MLP?

 

[jhaider]

Never tried this but if you were to place 2 subs in different locations in a room and then EQ'd each individually at the MLP.
Then measured them both playing back at the same time, would the result still flat at the MLP?

Depends on how you EQed them.

If you EQ’ed them to sum flat, they’d approach flat.

If you EQ’ed them individually flattish, they would more likely than not sum poorly.

 

[Sal1950]

If you EQ’ed them individually flattish, they would more likely than not sum poorly.

That's what I was thinking.
And why I believe Audyessy approach on dual subs is correct.

 

[jhaider]

That's what I was thinking.
And why I believe Audyessy approach on dual subs is correct.

It’s not “correct” but a simplification that’s as likely to hurt (as in, sum less cleanly than optimal, rob headroom) as help. You missed the point, which was the part you didn’t quote. The theoretically (and IME actually) better approach is, as @Sancus wrote above:

“treat "flat response at MLP" and "minimum deviation for all other listening positions" as targets, and then check every possible EQ filter, delay, phase, and gain setting to see which combination produces the best results given your targets.”

That’s what separates an SFM or DLBC from simpler attempts at solving the problem.

Put another way, one can shuffle about with ankle cuffs on, or take them off and sprint.

 

[Sal1950]

That’s what separates an SFM or DLBC from simpler attempts at solving the problem.

There are many times the KISS approach works out best in the long run.
Or "too many cooks can spoil the broth" LOL

 

[jhaider]

There are many times the KISS approach works out best in the long run.
Or "too many cooks can spoil the broth" LOL

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you haven’t actually tried modern approaches to multisub calibration.

There’s a reason why, when I used the Marantz 7703, I skipped Audyssey’s multisub-ish kludge and went to the tedious effort of doing a manual subwoofer calibration, and just used one sub out from the processor.

 

[Chromatischism]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you haven’t actually tried modern approaches to multisub calibration.

There’s a reason why, when I used the Marantz 7703, I skipped Audyssey’s multisub-ish kludge and went to the tedious effort of doing a manual subwoofer calibration, and just used one sub out from the processor.

I would, too, if Audyssey for whatever reason didn't work for me, but it has performed at multiple residences thus far:

This "kludge" was a one-click operation, and I didn't have to pay $500 for the upgrade on top of a $3-5k processor for a competing program.

 

[Sal1950]

There’s a reason why, when I used the Marantz 7703, I skipped Audyssey’s multisub-ish kludge and went to the tedious effort of doing a manual subwoofer calibration, and just used one sub out from the processor.Correct me if I’m wrong, but you haven’t actually tried modern approaches to multisub calibration.

I use the Audyssey dual sub "kludge" with the dual outs.
Works very well for my 2 SVS SB2000s

 

[Sal1950]

There’s a reason why, when I used the Marantz 7703, I skipped Audyssey’s multisub-ish kludge and went to the tedious effort of doing a manual subwoofer calibration, and just used one sub out from the processor.

If you weren't using Editor most likely that was your mistake.
It does a very good job at calibration and offers you many options to alter the presets that used to be the default curves.
Yes there are somewhat better software programs available, but at much higher costs. (the Editor app would have cost you
all of $20.) Plus some that aren't very good at all.
But for a conclusion I'll just quote from Amir's review above.

"Anyway, I told it to upload the data to the AVR which took a bit. Once there, the results were superb! The sound out of my system was now reference quality, pinning me down to my seat listening to track after track from my "audiophile" playlist. Room modes were gone and the deep, floor shaking bass that I expect from my Salon 2 speakers were back with the new target curve. Detail was to die for. Bass was clean. On and on.
I came into this review expecting Audyssey to not perform. That was my experience and that of formal blind testing of it years back. The out of box results of this "XT32" version was better than I remembered. Still, using the App is mandatory to properly incorporate a target curve with more bass and removal of "BBC dip." Once there, I had no issues with its performance and I think it comes very close to advanced solutions like Dirac and Anthem ARC.
I am happy to recommend Audyssey XT32 with use of Denon/Marantz app to customize it"

 

[reefer_bob]

Like a couple others have posted about here, I'm still looking for more actual reviews of how this product worked for folks.

I'm going to go and watch the long video, but i'd like to see some feedback from actual users, not the company. My system (new avr, LCR, & sub) and room (new carpet) are nearing completion, and I'm thinking this would be a nice icing on the cake!

Is it user friendly / intuitive. Are people hearing the benefits pre/post over the generic built in audyssey adjustments.

Cheers!

 

[jhaider]

I use the Audyssey dual sub "kludge" with the dual outs.
Works very well for my 2 SVS SB2000s

You seem to have designed your system within Audyssey's hard limits (just 2 subs, and identical ones) and I take it you only care about one seat. Under those conditions, as long as one adjusts the target curves to taste, Audyssey XT32 works very well. One of the best proofs of that is my AV7702 review, which shows measurements of Audyssey using a simplified version of my main system at the time: just the two subwoofers used at the time as stands for the mains, and not the other two bigger ones. The iOS app allows one to resolve the target curve issues I discuss in that review.

However, Audyssey does not have the degrees of freedom necessary to optimize multisubs more extensively or to address more sophsticated system configurations. So the only way to build a hard-core multisub system using Audyssey is to set up the subs manually and drive them from a mono sub output. Consider the bass measurements of the full multisub system with the same speakers in the same room here. Note that was pre DLBC - the subs were manually set up to minimize seat-to-seat variance under the assumption automated room correction could satisfactorily apply global EQ to the resulting transfer function when driving the subwoofer controller from a single output. While those measurements confirmed Dirac Live's high performance, Audyssey performs similarly well when used properly - mono out from AVP to a manually set up multisub system.

If you weren't using Editor most likely that was your mistake.

About the iOS app....I'm pretty sure I brought it to your attention in the first place...

IMO the main benefit of Dirac Live (before DLBC) over Audyssey was better implementation of target curve drawing. DBLC improves on regular Dirac in that department, too, because it dispenses with the stupidity of a separate subwoofer target curve (there a separate LFE one I think maybe?) in favor of proper full-range target curves for each channel spanning bass both managed speaker and subwoofers. (See "crossover" bar at 70Hz in the graph below.)

With DLBC the main advantage is saving hours and hours and hours (and hours) of manual subwoofer setup. One hopes as MultEQ X develops Audyssey will endow it with meaningful improvements in multisub handling capability.

But for a conclusion I'll just quote from Amir's review above.

That review is obviously out of the scope of our discussion of Audyssey and multisubs, because Amir demo'ed it on a 2.0-channel system.

 

[Sal1950]

One of the best proofs of that is my AV7702 review, which shows measurements of Audyssey using a simplified version of my main system at the time:

Totally irrelevant to this discussion. The 7702 was not compatible with Editor and only had a single subwoofer channel.

The iOS app

FYI, the app runs on either iOS or Android OS and will run on Windoz with Bluestacks and other android emulator software.

IMO the main benefit of Dirac Live (before DLBC) over Audyssey was better implementation of target curve drawing.

Maybe, if you only had one sub. Otherwise until about a year or so ago you were out of luck.

With DLBC the main advantage is saving hours and hours and hours (and hours) of manual subwoofer setup.

If your going to that extent why bother with Dirac at all? There are better, more serious DRC systems out there for the hands-on owner. And much cheaper.

However, Audyssey does not have the degrees of freedom necessary to optimize multisubs more extensively or to address more sophsticated system configurations.

With DLBC the main advantage is saving hours and hours and hours (and hours) of manual subwoofer setup.

And it will only cost you $500 to $700 to get it.

Enough of this anyway. You get most of your toys on long term loan or flat out free.
We regular folk have to pay for ours and things look a little different on this side of the road.

 

[sweetchaos]

I don't have an Denon/Marantz AVR to test this with...hoping someone who does can answer.

Does every Denon/Marantz have a web UI via the IP address, like shown in the video?
update: Gene mentioned "Most of the newer model years (2019 and newer do)."

How useful is this?

 

[RickSanchez]

I don't have an Denon/Marantz AVR to test this with...hoping someone who does can answer.

Does every Denon/Marantz have a web UI via the IP address, like shown in the video?

How useful is this?

Ha! I had never even thought to try that. Yes, I get the same web UI by going to my Denon S750H's IP (LAN) address. It appears it connects over port 10443.

Probably not a lot of utility there, but it's a cleaner interface to use vs. using the remote + on-screen menu.

 

[jhaider]

Totally irrelevant to this discussion. The 7702 was not compatible with Editor and only had a single subwoofer channel.

First, you're simply wrong on fact - 7702 had Audyssey’s dual sub “SubEQ” that is still unfortunately Audyssey’s latest attempt at multisub integration. It’s mentioned in multiple places in the review - read it. Hopefully Audyssey is reviewing what others are doing and will put their own spin on a modernized approach in future iterations of MultEQ X.

Second, 7702 in the context I brought it up is not irrelevant, but offered as real (spatial average of the same area, using different measurement points than the calibration points) evidence that Audyssey's processes generally do a good job of fitting the average response over the measured area to a target curve. No, it was not compatible with the iOS app (which wasn't around yet) so the target curves available were limited to Audyssey's chosen ones.

If your going to that extent why bother with Dirac at all?

Please re-read my post above and you'll find a sentence containing most of the answer. The second part of it is, the room controls the sound of the system well above the subwoofer range. That's why cardioid or dipole upper bass can (but doesn't always) bring improvements as well - different interaction with room modes.

There are better, more serious DRC systems out there for the hands-on owner. And much cheaper.

Bullshit without a link, but if you do know of one with equivalent functionality to DLBC and meets my requirements (outlined below) that's cheaper than HTP-1+DLBC and I will buy it RIGHT NOW and revert. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a less expensive room correction system that:

(a) offers equivalent functionality to DLBC in terms of integrating multiple subwoofers into an immersive system with each other and with the other channels
(b) is available as a software plugin for an immersive AVR/P with Atmos decoding and Auro upmixing, or is available in separate >15-channel audio processor to be placed downstream of the AVR/P - i.e. does not require polluting your audio system with a general purpose computer for daily use

To my knowledge, the list below is the whole relevant market.

• Audyssey, which, as discussed, has inferior multisub capabilities and unfortunately this shortcoming has not been addressed in the current version of MultEQ X
• Anthem ARC, which is available in less expensive products and is excellent too but does not have any native multisub capabilities yet and is unfortunately not available in an AVR/P with Auro upmixing
• RoomPerfect ticks all the functionality boxes but is only available on more expensive immersive AVPs (and 2-channel products)
• Trinnov and Harman ARCOS have stellar reputations (I've not used either one) but...are not less expensive

Enough of this anyway. You get most of your toys on long term loan or flat out free.

For the record, I bought my HTP-1 at the standard price from the website without asking for anything else. I also bought my mothballed AV7703 at market price. Obviously review loaners of other AVR/P's, loudspeakers, etc were evaluated and returned.

Actually there isn’t a single thing that I can think of in our main system that was purchased in a manner other than on the open market at a publicly available price. Then again the HTP-1, AppleTV, disk spinner, and Harmony remote are the only “consumer” products installed. Everything else is “pro” or custom made.

 

[CBM]

Have any members with Audyssey experience attempted to tune their system with Multeq-x? Is it just a new interface with more features or is it a different algorithm? Does your system sound/measure better? What do you think?

 

[amper42]

Multeq-x is a great way to fleece consumers of another $200 per receiver for something you can already do with the Audyssey app and rat buddy. The 100% increase in Denon receiver prices over the last 18 months wasn't enough profit margin.

 

[Chromatischism]

Multeq-x is a great way to fleece consumers of another $200 per receiver for something you can already do with the Audyssey app and rat buddy. The 100% increase in Denon receiver prices over the last 18 months wasn't enough profit margin.

Are they the same, though?

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

It may be possible to use Audyssey for two subs placed at different locations. The best I have had so far is to use a miniDSP 2x4HD with the 2 subs (one in the left corner the other on the opposite wall about 5 feet from the listening position and present the combo to Audyssey as one sub. Works extremely well.
So far I don't see the value of the non-transferable license at $200 . If it were perhaps I would consider it. Waiting for a review to let me understand more about it.

Peace.

 

[Sal1950]

Are they the same, though?

It's beginning to appear X offers quite a bit more now and more promised in future.
Read this post,

Audyssey MultEQ-X Features and Thoughts

Audyssey has introduced MultEQ-X, a PC based software program that connects to Marantz and Denon AVRs that currently support the Audyssey Mobile App. Here are its main features and my thoughts.

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