Beta Test: Multitone Loopback Analyzer software

[bennetng]

CAudioLimiter does not run on exclusive mode streams. Are you absolutely sure you are not in shared mode? Try playing sound from another, normal Windows app (e.g. a YouTube video) at the same time.

Some apps may silently fallback to shared mode if one of the exclusive mode (event vs push) does not work. In other cases, closing all sound related apps and reopen again may work. End users sometimes may need to have some trial and error to resolve these issues. BTW, your registry hack to disable the limiter works. In fact, in Audacity's loopback device I can even capture >0dBFS float data.

 

[edechamps]

Some apps may silently fallback to shared mode if one of the exclusive mode (event vs push) does not work.

I sure hope @pkane's software doesn't do this. That's definitely not helpful behaviour!

 

[pkane]

I sure hope DeltaWave doesn't do this. If it does, this is definitely something @pkane would need to fix.

There's no "silent fallback" but there is an option to auto-resample to match what's supported by the device when playing audio. When not selected, the user will be prompted whenever this occurs.

 

[bennetng]

@Blumlein 88 you mentioned BabyFace. RME by default explicitly disallow auto sample rate switching when using WASAPI exclusive mode and ASIO is required.

WASAPI why only 44.1 (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum

WASAPI why only 44.1 (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum —

www.forum.rme-audio.de

 

[Blumlein 88]

All Windows audio drivers support both WASAPI Shared and WASAPI Exclusive. It is not up to the driver. It is up to the application to decide which mode to use. The driver doesn't have a say in this, and in fact doesn't even really know which mode is being used.



WASAPI Exclusive is bit-perfect, or at least it's supposed to be with reasonable hardware and drivers. The application gets direct access to the audio driver's own buffers. I guess the driver could then mess up the signal afterwards but I would call that a defective driver.



CAudioLimiter does not run on exclusive mode streams. Are you absolutely sure you are not in shared mode? Try playing sound from another, normal Windows app (e.g. a YouTube video) at the same time.

Well in Audacity, Multitone, and Foobar I can choose WASAPI, and my choices are for RME various inputs like analog, adat, spdif, for output 2-speakers, for the Topping DAC only 2 speakers. I do not have shared checked in Multitone. So where do I look for a choice between exclusive or not? I have seen Foobar with some devices offer, shared, exclusive, push and event choices.

I have just checked and it is not in Exclusive mode as I can run the Multitone test and while playing a youtube video in a browser both sounds go thru the Topping and onto the RME ADC in use.

Here is a list of output choices I have which is the same list I get in those various audio playback softwares. Results indicate the CAaudiolimiter must be in place somewhere.

FWIW, I always use ASIO when it is available. I happened to notice the difference in Multitone just looking for bugs that needed fixing. Clearly this isn't a Multitone problem just a Windows problem.

 

[bennetng]

So where do I look for a choice between exclusive or not?

Click the gear on the top right corner. BTW, my loopback results on the Realtek ALC897, stock Microsoft driver.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Click the gear on the top right corner. BTW, my loopback results on the Realtek ALC897, stock Microsoft driver.
View attachment 219768

Here is what I've been using for all of this. As you see shared mode is unchecked.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Thanks for all the suggestions, as I said, I use ASIO when it is available, and now I know keep any WASAPI output to -.2 db or less. So it isn't that big of a deal just unexpected. For Multitone I can just set gain to - 1 db, and the only test which will be messed up is the level sweep. I see there is also the choice to limit the level sweep so that would work as well.

 

[Sokel]

Thanks for all the suggestions, as I said, I use ASIO when it is available, and now I know keep any WASAPI output to -.2 db or less. So it isn't that big of a deal just unexpected. For Multitone I can just set gain to - 1 db, and the only test which will be messed up is the level sweep. I see there is also the choice to limit the level sweep so that would work as well.

Just out of curiosity: what volume level do you use at the recording device in Windows mixer?

 

[bennetng]

Thanks for all the suggestions, as I said, I use ASIO when it is available, and now I know keep any WASAPI output to -.2 db or less. So it isn't that big of a deal just unexpected. For Multitone I can just set gain to - 1 db, and the only test which will be messed up is the level sweep. I see there is also the choice to limit the level sweep so that would work as well.

Don't know about other RME products, but I have used the Multiface II and the RME driver settings have some checkboxes saying "optimize multiclient operation", "MMCSS" and such, which could be relevant, you may have a look there.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Don't know about other RME products, but I have used the Multiface II and the RME driver settings have some checkboxes saying "optimize multiclient operation", "MMCSS" and such, which could be relevant, you may have a look there.

I'm getting those results using WASAPI for the Topping as an output, and ASIO for the RME as an input. Same results if both are using WASAPI.

Reaper shows choices for the various drivers many other softwares don't. It shows for using WASAPI if I'm using the Topping as an output Shared mode. If I change it and choose Exclusive then it closes that device with the message that mode is not available for that device. If I choose the RME as output, I can choose Exclusive mode. So looks like the Topping WASAPI driver only offers Shared Mode. Fortunately the Topping also comes with an ASIO driver which is the preferred way to use it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Just out of curiosity: what volume level do you use at the recording device in Windows mixer?

100% on volume level. The recording device of course has its own input gain. So I adjust that to get just below 0 dbFS.

 

[bennetng]

I'm getting those results using WASAPI for the Topping as an output, and ASIO for the RME as an input. Same results if both are using WASAPI.

Reaper shows choices for the various drivers many other softwares don't. It shows for using WASAPI if I'm using the Topping as an output Shared mode. If I change it and choose Exclusive then it closes that device with the message that mode is not available for that device. If I choose the RME as output, I can choose Exclusive mode. So looks like the Topping WASAPI driver only offers Shared Mode. Fortunately the Topping also comes with an ASIO driver which is the preferred way to use it.

Interesting. Speaking of Reaper, there is a Kernel Streaming mode. The only hardware I have at this moment that works with Kernel Streaming is a non class-compliant Roland interface purchased in 2001. How about your devices?

 

[Sokel]

100% on volume level. The recording device of course has its own input gain. So I adjust that to get just below 0 dbFS.

Thanks!

 

[Blumlein 88]

Interesting. Speaking of Reaper, there is a Kernel Streaming mode. The only hardware I have at this moment that works with Kernel Streaming is a non class-compliant Roland interface purchased in 2001. How about your devices?

Yes, it lists it for both devices and it will play audio that way. I just tried it out for a few seconds.

 

[edechamps]

So where do I look for a choice between exclusive or not? I have seen Foobar with some devices offer, shared, exclusive, push and event choices.

Different apps present the WASAPI Exclusive/shared option in different ways.

Push vs. event refers to two slightly different ways of implementing a WASAPI client. It only matters for reliability/latency and does not affect bit-perfectness.

I do not have shared checked in Multitone.
I have just checked and it is not in Exclusive mode as I can run the Multitone test and while playing a youtube video in a browser both sounds go thru the Topping and onto the RME ADC in use.

That points to a bug in Multitone where it is not actually using WASAPI Exclusive even though the "shared" option is unchecked. This is what I suspected all along. @pkane?

Here is a list of output choices I have which is the same list I get in those various audio playback softwares. Results indicate the CAaudiolimiter must be in place somewhere.

The device doesn't matter. CAudioLimiter always runs on all shared streams (unless you used my hack to remove it system-wide), i.e. WASAPI Shared, DirectSound, and MME. CAudioLimiter never runs on exclusive streams, i.e. WASAPI Exclusive, Kernel Streaming, and of course native ASIO.

Reaper shows choices for the various drivers many other softwares don't. It shows for using WASAPI if I'm using the Topping as an output Shared mode. If I change it and choose Exclusive then it closes that device with the message that mode is not available for that device. If I choose the RME as output, I can choose Exclusive mode. So looks like the Topping WASAPI driver only offers Shared Mode.

No, that's not how it works. What is more likely is that the specific format Reaper is trying to use is not supported by the hardware device/driver (Topping in this case). It works in shared mode because Windows will convert to a supported format automatically. It could also be a limitation in Reaper, i.e. there is something it doesn't like about the behavior of the Topping device in exclusive mode (I don't know, could be that it can't negotiate a buffer size, could be anything). Basically it looks like an incompatibility between Reaper and the Exclusive mode of that specific device. Other apps might behave differently and might be able to open the Topping device in WASAPI Exclusive mode.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Different apps present the WASAPI Exclusive/shared option in different ways.

Push vs. event refers to two slightly different ways of implementing a WASAPI client. It only matters for reliability/latency and does not affect bit-perfectness.



That points to a bug in Multitone where it is not actually using WASAPI Exclusive even though the "shared" option is unchecked. This is what I suspected all along. @pkane?



The device doesn't matter. CAudioLimiter always runs on all shared streams (unless you used my hack to remove it system-wide), i.e. WASAPI Shared, DirectSound, and MME. CAudioLimiter never runs on exclusive streams, i.e. WASAPI Exclusive, Kernel Streaming, and of course native ASIO.



No, that's not how it works. What is more likely is that the specific format Reaper is trying to use is not supported by the hardware device/driver (Topping in this case). It works in shared mode because Windows will convert to a supported format automatically. It could also be a limitation in Reaper, i.e. there is something it doesn't like about the behavior of the Topping device in exclusive mode (I don't know, could be that it can't negotiate a buffer size, could be anything). Basically it looks like an incompatibility between Reaper and the Exclusive mode of that specific device. Other apps might behave differently and might be able to open the Topping device in WASAPI Exclusive mode.

All of this is why I've more or less migrated to Macbooks for audio. If I get the sample rates to the same setting in the Midi controls, it works without all these curious possibilities that you have in Windows. I have used my Windows laptop for recording when of course ASIO is available for my recording devices. When some of the audio devices don't offer ASIO (these are generally playback only DACs or AV devices) you aren't sure what you are getting without jumping thru hoops.

 

[bennetng]

@edechamps and @pkane
Any comments?

 

[pkane]

That points to a bug in Multitone where it is not actually using WASAPI Exclusive even though the "shared" option is unchecked. This is what I suspected all along. @pkane?

Multitone just passes a flag to the audio library. If it's for some reason reversed, just toggle the selection in Multitone and see if it switches to the other mode.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I double checked my speaker properties and Exclusive mode should be available. Any suggestions for commonly available software that should use Topping in Exclusive mode? Does not work with Audacity, Reaper, Foobar or Multitone.