SBIR?I really have only one question about spatial room correction: Can it fix SBIR?(for some value of fix) If the answer is yes, then it's worth the extra money for the A1H just by itself and it's not even close. If not, then meh.
SBIR?I really have only one question about spatial room correction: Can it fix SBIR?(for some value of fix) If the answer is yes, then it's worth the extra money for the A1H just by itself and it's not even close. If not, then meh.
Speaker Boundary Interference ResponseSBIR?
Speaker Boundary Interference ResponseSBIR?
I want you to confirm if Audyssey will work all 3 of your subs or if it's only for Bass Control. Please!Can't wait to set it up. I currently have a 4700 with an external 11 channel monolith amp and 3 subs running on a mini DSP. Hopefully this was the right choice rather than waiting for the 4800.
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The issue is that he needs to figure out the room correction system and stop blaming the Denon AVR for having bad sound. He hasn't implemented the suggestion to get the app and take more control of the system. If he did it would make a world of difference.Ugh. This is not a good way to review using subjective impressions and assuming it is some sort of "tuned" sound. I'm more than frustrated at your approach to reviewing this AVR that so many are looking forward to purchasing.
And proper measurements in Aud, through the App.The issue is that he needs to figure out the room correction system and stop blaming the Denon AVR for having bad sound. He hasn't implemented the suggestion to get the app and take more control of the system. If he did it would make a world of difference.
DEQ On, start with 0 offset
Filter Frequency Range: 500 Hz
Audyssey Reference, no bypass
Bass: LFE, not LFE+Main
Midrange Compensation: depends on your speakers, look at the measurements to determine
Get a good subwoofer
Of course, but this advice isn't nearly as useful as people seem to think. You cannot eliminate SBIR with speaker positioning, there will always be nulls caused by reflections in an untreated room regardless of speaker placement. All you can do is change what frequency it happens at for each boundary and then hope to compensate with subwoofers(if you can push the frequency very low) or room treatment(by pushing it high).FWIW, in setting up a room, you should always maximize the Positional EQ before relying on any additional Room Correction Protocol.
What are "studio monitor headphones", and why no equalization? Most headphones benefit from equalization, even very good ones.(my reference, again, are studio monitor headphones driven by a different unequalized amp)
Yeah that's how these features work. The AVR cannot analyze the source to determine the right bass volume, because all it gets is an instantaneous signal, so you have to tell it. Nonetheless, it's a useful feature for those who listen at low volumes. I personally always listen at the same high-ish volume(within a few dB of 80) so I don't use it.With the L/R Bypass setting, the default 0 dB setting of the DEQ was overwhelming to the point of being unpleasant, while the 15 dB setting produced insufficient bass. The 5 and 10 dB settings were tolerable, but would have to be switched depending on whether I played electronica (e.g. Daft Punk's Random Access Memories), or jazz tracks, or something else. Just for complete evaluation purposes, I tried the Flat setting with DEQ on, and clearly heard an unpleasant distortion.
You like the $200 Dirac upgrade with a likely additional $500 fee for bass management but not the $20 app? That seems inconsistent. FWIW; I agree the $20 fee is silly, but it's negligible compared to everything else.In combination with the announcement of the upcoming Dirac Live upgrade (with a possible bass management enhancement), all this tells me that even D/M does not consider Audyssey to be good enough. Also, I find the requirement to pay $20 for a dedicated tuning app on top of the $1,700 for the AVR itself to be simply ridiculous.
It's not really possible for there to be a one-size-fits-all room curve, because the bass and treble vary both by personal preference and based on the amount of absorption in a room(for high frequencies), its size, and the listening position. So that's why you need the app. And yes, it is complicated to get this right, but if anything Dirac is even more complicated than Audyssey so it's not going to help anyone there.So, while I will keep experimenting with other material and my *subjective* AVR tests (while we all await objective measurements), I think this AVR does indeed exhibit a specific Yamauchi-san-tuned sound signature, instead of being close to neutral and transparent.
Certainly. However, it is possible to minimize certain effects to the point that they are somewhat "normalized." I am not claiming that ALL effects can be treated thusly. For the case which I cited in my room, I turned it from a -30 dB suckout to a -20dB suckout. It was much more narrow in FR and matched the boost preceding it in a way that made it come out as +10/-10 relative to 0 in a much smaller range of the FR.Of course, but this advice isn't nearly as useful as people seem to think. You cannot eliminate SBIR with speaker positioning, there will always be nulls caused by reflections in an untreated room regardless of speaker placement. All you can do is change what frequency it happens at for each boundary and then hope to compensate with subwoofers(if you can push the frequency very low) or room treatment(by pushing it high).
Do you have some way to record the signal? Some audio interface, sound card, ADC?I think this AVR does indeed exhibit a specific Yamauchi-san-tuned sound signature, instead of being close to neutral and transparent
100% agree. Adding to it, getting REW and a UMIK1 mic will get the OP independent verification of the sound in the room. I very much suspect setup and room effects too, but we need objective proof. And only then the OP can see what possible changes have which affect, otherwise it is most likely an endless loop of trail and error mixed with subjective listening impressions which might fool the OP into thinking things have improved or not.Do you have some way to record the signal? Some audio interface, sound card, ADC?
When I purchased my Denon AVR 4500H, which is two generations older then yours, I believed it sounded poorly. Just my perception. I also have a Jeff Rowland Capri stereo preamplifier, which is an audiophile darling, and I loved the sound of it. I also have RME Adi2 Pro FS Black edition AD to DA conversion which measures extremely well in AD conversion.
For experiment I recorded the song through Jeff Rowland analog stage and Denon's analog stage (Pure direct, no Audyssey, no subs, nothing) and used Deltawave software by member here, Pkane, if I am not mistaken. I found the two files 99,9% the same.
I was so sure I heard a difference between the two and was surprised to find that the sound of an average AVR is perfectly fine. No high-end preamp, whatever the cost, is not audibly better then a Denon AVR's preamp.
The point is that Amir measured a few of the Denon AVRs, found them audibly transparent (even though he is never satisfied in their SINAD numbers and demands more), so most of us will have doubts when you claim that Denon AVR has poor bass or faulty frequency response.
Of course, there is a possibility that these new AVRs have completly different circuits and behave poorly as you claim. You might be right, but we need objective proof.
So if you have some capability to record the signal through your AVR in pure mode, through a decent ADC, some sound card, it would help to prove your point or prove to yourself that your device is perfectly fine.
You may additionally want to try different DEQ settings in combination with different LFC settings to adjust the overall amount of bass).To further report on my first impressions of the 3800H, last night I tried some of the suggestions on this thread. I enabled the Dynamic EQ (DEQ) with the Audyssey settings of both Reference and L/R Bypass. I listened to reference recordings streamed from Amazon Music HD at volumes in the 45-55 range on the default 0-98 scale, and with 3 different ECO power settings.
With the Reference setting, treble got noticeably boosted, upper bass was quite weak, and only the very lowest bass was hearable, creating a "pulsating/thumping sensation" on some recordings (from the front speakers, since I do not have a subwoofer). At times, I even had to pause the playback to check if something outside the home was causing these kind of disturbing sounds.
With the L/R Bypass setting, the default 0 dB setting of the DEQ was overwhelming to the point of being unpleasant, while the 15 dB setting produced insufficient bass. The 5 and 10 dB settings were tolerable, but would have to be switched depending on whether I played electronica (e.g. Daft Punk's Random Access Memories), or jazz tracks, or something else. Just for complete evaluation purposes, I tried the Flat setting with DEQ on, and clearly heard an unpleasant distortion.
In the end, I concluded the best test would be to listen to some recordings with good acoustic bass (e.g. Brian Bromberg's Wood album) to determine if the setup faithfully reproduces the known instrument. Sadly, it did not (my reference, again, are studio monitor headphones driven by a different unequalized amp). With the Audyssey Reference setting, the bass was perceptibly underemphasized to the point of seeming to play "somewhere in the background." With the L/R Bypass setting, I could not find a close-enough reproduction with any of the 4 available DEQ sub-settings; it just did not sound natural.
Next, I tried some vocal-dominant recordings (e.g. tracks by Youn Sun Nah) and they did not sound as natural, clear or spacious as with the old AVR. I also tried some of the "natural-effects" tracks from Yosi Horikawa and most of them exhibited a narrow soundstage confined to the space between the front speakers; only one I tried was wider (as it should be).
I also tried a DTS jazz recording on a DVD and a live talk show in Dolby Surround. In both, the side surround speakers played at too high a level even with Audyssey set to its calibrated Reference. In combination with the announcement of the upcoming Dirac Live upgrade (with a possible bass management enhancement), all this tells me that even D/M does not consider Audyssey to be good enough. Also, I find the requirement to pay $20 for a dedicated tuning app on top of the $1,700 for the AVR itself to be simply ridiculous. I guess the real test of the effectiveness of the speaker/room correction embedded in this AVR would be to run a software like REW with a calibrated mic on a PC (I have no experience with that, but I think it would be worth an investment).
So, while I will keep experimenting with other material and my *subjective* AVR tests (while we all await objective measurements), I think this AVR does indeed exhibit a specific Yamauchi-san-tuned sound signature, instead of being close to neutral and transparent. Some may like it (if anything, by virtue of already owning some Denon equipment and feeling obligated to defend their purchases), while some others my not. My goal is simply to find the best reasonably priced replacement for my current AVR.
Do you have some way to record the signal? Some audio interface, sound card, ADC?
When I purchased my Denon AVR 4500H, which is two generations older then yours, I believed it sounded poorly. Just my perception. I also have a Jeff Rowland Capri stereo preamplifier, which is an audiophile darling, and I loved the sound of it. I also have RME Adi2 Pro FS Black edition AD to DA conversion which measures extremely well in AD conversion.
For experiment I recorded the song through Jeff Rowland analog stage and Denon's analog stage (Pure direct, no Audyssey, no subs, nothing) and used Deltawave software by member here, Pkane, if I am not mistaken. I found the two files 99,9% the same.
I was so sure I heard a difference between the two and was surprised to find that the sound of an average AVR is perfectly fine. No high-end preamp, whatever the cost, is not audibly better then a Denon AVR's preamp.
The point is that Amir measured a few of the Denon AVRs, found them audibly transparent (even though he is never satisfied in their SINAD numbers and demands more), so most of us will have doubts when you claim that Denon AVR has poor bass or faulty frequency response.
Of course, there is a possibility that these new AVRs have completly different circuits and behave poorly as you claim. You might be right, but we need objective proof.
So if you have some capability to record the signal through your AVR in pure mode, through a decent ADC, some sound card, it would help to prove your point or prove to yourself that your device is perfectly fine.
Thank you for this excellent suggestion and also for expressing it in a nice and constructive tone (instead of just blasting me, as some other members keep doing, for not following their instructions down to the letter, incl. getting a subwoofer, etc.). Unfortunately, I do not have an ADC or sound card to make such a test recording. I could only record sound with a smartphone but it would likely be of too low a quality.
What I would like to see is comprehensive measurements of the DEQ not only at various volumes and reference level settings, but also with signals of dynamically changing amplitude (i.e. not just set an amplitude and run a frequency sweep). If the DEQ is truly "dynamic," as its name implies, it might change its FR characteristics not just with those static settings, but also by determining the actual level and dynamics of the material (although that could introduce dynamic coloration).
I just found this video which shows plenty of "static" REW measurements that confirm my perceptions:
Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset | Does it ACTUALLY help?
I do not listen at very high volumes, so the author's finding that with some reference settings the DEQ actually reduces bass and highs is of less importance to me. But one of the takeaways is very valuable: at moderate levels, the 0 dB reference setting does produce too much of "boomy" bass. Also, in terms of highs, it perceivably (i.e. by more than a dB or two) boosts frequencies only over 15 kHz, which most people cannot hear anyway. It does not boost frequencies in the 4-10 kHz range, which the equal-loudness contours suggest should be amplified as well. This explains why I did not hear any improvement of highs with the DEQ on. It may also explain why my old Yamaha receiver, which has a motorized-pot volume control with a fixed loudness curve, sounds much better in terms of mids and highs at low to moderate volumes.
Another finding is that the DEQ boosts the surround sound not just below 500 Hz, but over the entire frequency range into the highs, which causes an imbalance even with Audyssey corrections enabled. That explains why I heard the side surrounds playing too loud compared to the fronts and center with the multi-channel source material. The author says he therefore does not use the DEQ at all, but then he listens at volumes much higher than I do. With the DEQ off, I find the sound has just a hint of bass at the volumes I use, which is hardly acceptable when listening to music.
The bad news is that, per the above video, the DEQ is what it is and cannot be adjusted. The good news is that my hearing is not entirely crappy yet.
No one can argue with or challenge your subjective opinions anyway, because it is subjective so you heard what you heard. And others likely have difference preference than yours, even if all heard exactly the same.The bad news is that, per the above video, the DEQ is what it is and cannot be adjusted. The good news is that my hearing is not entirely crappy yet.