DAC Choices

[majingotan]

Don't know about Rob Watts, my goodness .
I can not do FAST A/B switching in a listening test, and I have met people who get annoyed by it, that's all.
What angry, condescending responses?
What claims without evidence? did I claim anything, apart from "I get confused by fast ...."?
If you read my response, you can see that I did say "I understand the reasons why". Ear/brain having a short memory et all.
What has Rob Watts got to do with anything?

They get annoyed by it because it eliminates the magical fairies they hear on DACs that prop up inside their heads when a proper controlled testing is in place

 

[Ken Tajalli]

I wasn't speaking of your responses specifically,

OK then, I thought you meant me, specifically!

I was referring to the responses given by those who typically make the crazy claims in the first place. The Rob Watts' of the world in other words. His claims are the stuff of legend. Unfortunately, he has no evidence. He is the designer behind much of Chord's product line.

No comment on Rob Watts of the world and their opinions. If the device, measures well and sounds good to me, that's all I care.

Reading the industry responses to those asking for actual evidence gets pretty nuts pretty fast. What we get is everything but evidence.
Have you seen any manufacturers that have provided the results of controlled listening tests? What I see are a lot of claims that tend to stretch credibility, with no evidence, and I wonder why people believe it.

They are in the business of selling! Goes with the territory. No, I haven't. At best, they might have a link to a favourable review.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

They get annoyed by it because it eliminates the magical fairies they hear on DACs that prop up inside their heads when a proper controlled testing is in place

No! Though I do like fairy tales
As I said in my original post, the difference between a good DAC and a great DAC, is not all that great! Fast A/B switching between two similar sounds won't work for me. As we know, brain/ear audio memory is short, after a while, I get frustrated because the differences, if any, are small and I won't remember them. Instead of listening, I find myself stressing just to pick differences.
It could well be a double-blind listening test, I have no issue with that, but a FAST A/B one! I do.

 

[BDWoody]

It could well be a double-blind listening test, I have no issue with that, but a FAST A/B one! I do.

Fast switching is not a requirement of the testing format, it is simply to give the listener a better chance of success. If you can reliably identify differences using slow switching you're golden!

There is nothing that says you can't have a month between times when someone comes in and switches between devices when you aren't there...

It will just make it harder, but if that makes it a more comfortable experience, by all means go for it. It is no less valid.

 

[Doodski]

It is no less valid.

It is less valid because of extraneous circumstances and random the chance that one eats better and feel better than usual or something like that occurs.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Fast switching is not a requirement of the testing format, it is simply to give the listener a better chance of success. If you can reliably identify differences using slow switching you're golden!

There is nothing that says you can't have a month between times when someone comes in and switches between devices when you aren't there...

It will just make it harder, but if that makes it a more comfortable experience, by all means go for it. It is no less valid.

Hallelujah! That's all I was trying to say, but as you say (to prove my point) that a Fast one is preferable, and I understand the reasons why.
As to whether measurements are everything or not? we have a lengthy thread about that, short of the long story, here on ASR, the answer is It Is! and that was my answer to OP, not to waste his time and pursue it here, elsewhere, perhaps.

 

[ahofer]

It is less valid because of extraneous circumstances and random the chance that one eats better and feel better than usual or something like that occurs.

Or listens to a different mix of music, enjoys life more, whatever, and associates it with their surroundings.

 

[BDWoody]

It is less valid because of extraneous circumstances and random the chance that one eats better and feel better than usual or something like that occurs.

It depends on the controls and how it was set up. If over 6 months, the boxes were switched at random intervals from 1-15 days (let's say...), and whatever notes were kept with some minimum hours of observation per time period, etc., I think it could be less than a waste of time. Key would be to set it up properly, like any controlled testing. Maybe have a required 10 minute listening session 3x/day... I don't know. The more I think through it the more that needs to be addressed, but I don't think it is impossible to make it work.

 

[BDWoody]

Or listens to a different mix of music, enjoys life more, whatever, and associates it with their surroundings.

Wouldn't that null out with enough time and gear changes? That should end up being fairly random. I'm not convinced I'm on rock solid ground, so not arguing...just trying to come up with an alternative for those who get...confused.

 

[Doodski]

It depends on the controls and how it was set up. If over 6 months, the boxes were switched at random intervals from 1-15 days (let's say...), and whatever notes were kept with some minimum hours of observation per time period, etc., I think it could be less than a waste of time. Key would be to set it up properly, like any controlled testing. Maybe have a required 10 minute listening session 3x/day... I don't know. The more I think through it the more that needs to be addressed, but I don't think it is impossible to make it work.

What if with increased listening time/sessions the ears wax up? Is a Dr req'd for managing subjects? There are all sorts of things that can occur. I figure if doing a slow switcheroo then make that like three or four hours at most between DACs. It's enough time to familiarize oneself enough to become one with the environment in a test situation.

 

[ahofer]

Wouldn't that null out with enough time and gear changes? That should end up being fairly random. I'm not convinced I'm on rock solid ground, so not arguing...just trying to come up with an alternative for those who get...confused.

Maybe. My personality tends towards more melancholy/upbeat for months at a time.

In my blind tests catalogue thread, there are descriptions of some long-term listening tests, and indeed, the subjects couldn't distinguish the equipment.

 

[BDWoody]

What if with increased listening time/sessions the ears wax up? Is a Dr req'd for managing subjects? There are all sorts of things that can occur. I figure if doing a slow switcheroo then make that like three or four hours at most between DACs. It's enough time to familiarize oneself enough to become one with the environment in a test situation.

If over a 10 month period, with listening notes taken 3x every day, with times between switching boxes ranging randomly between 1 and 15 days, with a total of 30 changes done without knowledge of listener, and on box 1 days it is *always* consistently glowing, and on box 2 days it is *always* consistently meh, would you not be able to draw anything from that? Is there no way to do valid long term comparisons?

 

[BDWoody]

In my blind tests catalogue thread, there are descriptions of some long-term listening tests, and indeed, the subjects couldn't distinguish the equipment.

I would bet that to be true. A lot in fact in most cases.

 

[Doodski]

If over a 10 month period, with listening notes taken 3x every day, with times between switching boxes ranging randomly between 1 and 15 days, with a total of 30 changes done without knowledge of listener, and on box 1 days it is *always* consistently glowing, and on box 2 days it is *always* consistently meh, would you not be able to draw anything from that? Is there no way to do valid long term comparisons?

I'm not a fan of the long change switchover. How does one describe what they are hearing over these days/weeks/etc? How does this factor into these 30 changeovers? Does the listener get 2 choices? The more questions that arise = there are more questions answering questions and the more I don't like it.

 

[Womaz]

I was hoping this temptation to try a cheap DAC to compare would go away
So I can now get a JDS Labs Atom DAC for £150 here in the UK so I would not lose a great deal of cash when I sell it on. But before I take the plunge I was thinking can I not already do a comparsion.
I have an Iphone 13 and an IPad Pro, and the Apple dongle thing from which I rememeber has a DAC ?
I use Roon so if I just feed my Niimbus with the Iphone or the Ipad and the adapter ? This would let me compare surely, or am I missing something really obvious here?

Just to remember all I want to do is see if I can hear a difference between a cheap DAC nad my Qutest. This forum has me intrigued as to whether measurements are the only thing that matters where it comes to sound quality.......and I guess I want to prove it to myself, or at least try to.

Help please Can anyone answer this please?

 

[Rednaxela]

How are you planning to level match?

 

[Bernd]

If I was buying a DAC it would be the Mini Flex and that's based on what else you get with it.

Or the ADI DAC 2 FS. Comes with a good DSP section Alas, the UI is displayed on the small screen of the device and is a good example of 'better user unfriendliness'.

 

[Womaz]

How are you planning to level match?

I will have to do it very crudely. I know this is not great but I think I just need to try this for myself

 

[Rednaxela]

Definitely.

However if you do hear differences, please don’t report back.

 

[Womaz]

Definitely.

However if you do hear differences, please don’t report back.

To be honest I wouldn’t dare been watching this forum long enough to know that.