Denon AVR-X3500H AVR Review

[raistlin65]

I did? Don't recall. But if this is for home theater, you better dedicate one to center channel as that gets beat harder than any other channel in movies.

Normally, yes, if the singular goal is to benefit HT usage. But my center channel has 90db sensitivity. My left and right are 85db. Since my Denon receiver's amplifier output is power supply limited, I suspect taking the left and right out of the equation probably help just as much with HT usage, if not more, than if I were running a monoblock for the center channel instead.

Plus, I get the benefit of the amp for 2 channel music listening. 5.1.2 with Denon X4200W and Parasound 2125v2.

 

[peng]

Seems that ESS 9038 (DNR: 140dB in mono) is better than 9028 which is better than 9018 (DNR: 135dB in mono) which is better than 9008 (DNR: 134dB in mono): http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en/products/dac/. However, ESS is not disclosing DNR for the 90298PRO chip, but it might be about the same spec like the 9038 (THD+N: 120dB).

Too bad ESS is not providing anymore those beautiful datasheet like used to do in the past: http://www.esstech.com/files/1414/4095/4309/es9008_dac_comparison_SPDIF_96000_compA_compb.pdf.

Yes 9038>9028>9018>9008, my point was simply that even the 9008 has better THD+N and DNR than any versions of the 90X6 including the 9026 Pro.

 

[peng]

since it seems keeping the AVR in the route will only add noise and distortion.

It depends, if you only need a 200 to 250 WPC power amp with gain >= 29 dB you will be fine because the X3500H measured very well when the preout voltage is under 1.5 V. With 29 dB gain, 1.5 V preout will get you 223 W. Amir said above 1.5 V was when things get crazy, but by "crazy" the measured THD+N was still only around 0.02 %, that's still decent compared to Parasound's P5 separate preamp's specified 0.01% just as an example. At 2 V output, you can drive a 29 dB gain power amp to output almost 400 W average, i.e. 800 W peak. So again, it depends...

 

[SynthesisCinema]

The replacement of the 3500, the 3600 looks more like the 4500 inside ...
3600 below / 26.7 pounds

3500 below ... (best price = $500) / 23.8 lbs.

And the 4500 below (for comparison simplicity, together all three) / 30.2 lbs

Marantz SR6013 looks also very similar to X4500H with beefier heatsinks than in X3500H. Power on paper is similar to X3500H with 2 extra amps and 11.2 processing, but the Polish site measured SR6013 and it basically matched to X4500H.

Example UK pricing: X4500H = 999£ , SR6013 = 699£.

 

[North_Sky]

I am wondering if Amir could lay his hands on something like an ARCAM or CA AVR.

CA? ...Not Cambridge?

About the new JBL AV receiver (SDR-35) ... 16 channels with state-of-the-art Room EQ system (Dirac Live) and ESSPro Sabre DACs?
• https://www.jblsynthesis.com/produc...35-.html?dwvar_SDR-35-_color=Black-US-Current

 

[North_Sky]

Normally, yes, if the singular goal is to benefit HT usage. But my center channel has 90db sensitivity. My left and right are 85db. Since my Denon receiver's amplifier output is power supply limited, I suspect taking the left and right out of the equation probably help just as much with HT usage, if not more, than if I were running a monoblock for the center channel instead.

Plus, I get the benefit of the amp for 2 channel music listening. 5.1.2 with Denon X4200W and Parasound 2125v2.

A big equation in all of this...by using dual powered subwoofers and Audyssey engaged.
All your speakers are crossed over @ 80Hz anyway...so it all takes that load of from the receiver.

 

[peng]

Marantz SR6013 looks also very similar to X4500H with beefier heatsinks than in X3500H. Power on paper is similar to X3500H with 2 extra amps and 11.2 processing, but the Polish site measured SR6013 and it basically matched to X4500H.

Example UK pricing: X4500H = 999£ , SR6013 = 699£.

View attachment 40158

Not really, the x4500h and the sr7013 are the twins. Sr6013 is in between, until this year when the sr6014 became the real twin with the x3600h, well, almost..

 

[North_Sky]

Looks like it to me too ... (7013)
• https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/denon-avr-x4500h/usa/marantz-sr7013/usa/

(7012)
• https://www.crutchfield.ca/S-IUbZ77...R7012/Denon-AVR-X4500H-vs-Marantz-SR7012.html

* The Marantz 6013 versus the Denon 3600 for a closer comparison.
The Marantz receivers here have a 7.1 multich analog input, gold plated jacks, and a more attractive design overall (personal taste). They weight slightly more (only few pounds), and in North America they cost more.

 

[raistlin65]

A big equation in all of this...by using dual powered subwoofers and Audyssey engaged.
All your speakers are crossed over @ 80Hz anyway...so it all takes that load of from the receiver.

No doubt. I was running dual subs, when I gave one of them to my son who just got his first apartment (his neighbors must hate me). So currently waiting on a PSA V1512 pre-order to get back to 5.2.2

 

[merceg100]

Hi guys,
My first post ever. I read throught all 6 pages of this review cos soon I'll be on the market for new AVR which can handle 5.1.2 and I was thinking mostly about Denon AVR-X3600H. Now, i dont know much about measurements and everything that you talked about on last 6 pages. So to cut the story short, which AVR would you recommend for me? My needs are 5.1.2, atmos and dts-x, HDR10+, DV. I know that 3600 can handle 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 but to have spare 2 ch I dont mind. And I would definetly not go over 1500$. I know that this is a thread about 3500 and not about "all the rest AVRs" but considering that Denon was the brand I was looking forward after my Onkyo tx-nr 709 failed me I would really appriciate your opinions for 1500$ AVR.

Thanks

 

[North_Sky]

Methinks the 3600 is a fine choice...find a good price for it (this is Black Friday time) and enjoy listening to film's soundtracks in Dolby Atmos/DTS:X with Audyssey MultEQ XT32.
▪ https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3600h

* If you are from the USA you might also consider this (3-year warranty) ...
☆ https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

The 4500 @ $900 is a tough price to beat versus the 3600 if you can find it @ $800 or less. The 4500 is the right choice @ the price, even if you can find a 3600 for say $700-800 ... IMPO / It depends of your country. A free 3-year warranty...that's a good piece of mind.

 

[Gedeon]

As far as I know, most multichannel power amps are rated to work with 1.2v input voltage as high limit through unbalanced (1.5v max). That's why isn't a good idea to test AVR outputs at 2v.

Take a look to Parasound and Marantz power amps to check it. Emotiva poweramps go to 1.5v but no higher.

I just humbly suggest all test in this equipments should be done with those numbers in mind.

And most modern AVR, also, as far as I know perform an ADC, in all analog inputs. Even when in direct modes are enabled. In Denon/Marantz with AKM AK5538, probably at 192khz to be as transparent as possible.

 

[peng]

Looks like it to me too ... (7013)
• https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/denon-avr-x4500h/usa/marantz-sr7013/usa/

(7012)
• https://www.crutchfield.ca/S-IUbZ77...R7012/Denon-AVR-X4500H-vs-Marantz-SR7012.html

* The Marantz 6013 versus the Denon 3600 for a closer comparison.
The Marantz receivers here have a 7.1 multich analog input, gold plated jacks, and a more attractive design overall (personal taste). They weight slightly more (only few pounds), and in North America they cost more.

I would be careful with their website information, 3rd party comparison table such as Crutchfield's would be even less accurate in general. Denon's comparison table also listed the AVR-X4400H had gold plated RCA jacks but they didn't so I highly doubt the AVR-X4500H or Marantz SR7012, 7013 have them, let alone the lower model 6013. Denon typically put gold plated jacks on their top two model, so the X6500H might have them. Marantz seemed always fit them in the flagship models only but they stopped making flagship model until 2018, i.e. the SR8012. The SR7012 was their top model but clearly not a flag ship class as it = AVR-X4400H + 7.1 analog in + HDAM that is unique to Marantz.

The less than 2 lbs weight of the 6013 over the 3600 are mostly due to the multichannel analog inputs and the 13 channels of HDMI modules.

Not that it would made any audible difference, but when I went to Bestbuy and noticed the jacks were not gold plated I was still disappointed, because the Marantz AV8801 it replaced have them, and based on Denon's own website information (the comparison table) showed that they have them. Wasn't mad enough to complain to D&M about such false advertisement though.

So much false/fake claims on the internet, what can you do..

 

[peng]

As far as I know, most multichannel power amps are rated to work with 1.2v input voltage as high limit through unbalanced (1.5v max). That's why isn't a good idea to test AVR outputs at 2v.

Take a look to Parasound and Marantz power amps to check it. Emotiva poweramps go to 1.5v but no higher.

I just humbly suggest all test in this equipments should be done with those numbers in mind.

And most modern AVR, also, as far as I know perform an ADC, in all analog inputs. Even when in direct modes are enabled. In Denon/Marantz with AKM AK5538, probably at 192khz to be as transparent as possible.

And I would like to humbly suggest that Denon/Marantz specified 1.2 V likely as a matter of standardization, as at that voltage, with 29 dB gain the amp can reach about 140 W, a typical rated output value for the D&M AVRs in the AVR-X4000/SR7000 series. So rated preamp output 1.2 V for rated power amp output of 140 W seems to make sense. That does not mean, and D&M never claimed, that the 1.2 V is maximum.

In fact Yamaha rated their AVR pre out just 1 V, as do some audiophile leaning brands, yet they all measured on various test bench much higher than 1 V.

Audioholics have confirmed more than once that those receivers could output up to about 4 V unclipped (probably meant around 0.1% THD??) Denon has also provided their internal measurements, use the AP analyzer as well that shows the AVR-X3600H clipped at 4.25 V.

I attached the diagram in one of my earlier post, for your convenience, here it is again:

I do have some faint hope that if @amirm (hope he would read this) still have the receiver hooked up, he would retest it in pure direct mode and make sure ECO is turned off, not auto. ECO should have no effects on the preamp section but its effect on the power amp section may have some bad influence reflect back to the preamp (just my stupid guess..).

I know Amir must have reason to believe the analog input signal didn't go through A to D, but I have seen the schematics of the X3400H, and the fact that in Stereo you can do EQ including Audyssey, it really must go through ADC and it would be hard to imagine the X3500H is any different.

Only in pure direct, that we can be sure analog input will bypass the ADC chip AK5358 that is not a very good one to begin with.

 

[Gedeon]

Not sure that even pure direct bypasses ADC. It seems it just shuts down analog video section, display and maybe (just maybe) another features. I think that signal is always ADC... no reasons to implement a pure analog pre-amp in this kind of product when you can already get a +90db SNR, a low THD and a good DR. It's a consumer AVR, no more but no less.

 

[RickSanchez]

Hi guys,
My first post ever. I read throught all 6 pages of this review cos soon I'll be on the market for new AVR which can handle 5.1.2 and I was thinking mostly about Denon AVR-X3600H. Now, i dont know much about measurements and everything that you talked about on last 6 pages. So to cut the story short, which AVR would you recommend for me? My needs are 5.1.2, atmos and dts-x, HDR10+, DV. I know that 3600 can handle 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 but to have spare 2 ch I dont mind. And I would definetly not go over 1500$. I know that this is a thread about 3500 and not about "all the rest AVRs" but considering that Denon was the brand I was looking forward after my Onkyo tx-nr 709 failed me I would really appriciate your opinions for 1500$ AVR.

Thanks

Depending on your exact requirements (and how motivated you are to go below $1500), take a look at the various models in the Denon line with Atmos and DTS-X (wpc ratings are based on 8 ohm / 2 channels driven):

S-series (limited to Audyssey MultEQ)

• s750h (75 wpc)
• s950h (90 wpc)

X-series (starts at Audyssey MultEQ XT, some have XT32)

• x1600h (80 wpc)
• x2600h (95 wpc)
• x3600h (105 wpc)

This is a great time to look/buy (at least with U.S.-based retailers) because of Black Friday + Cyber Monday. Keep in mind that you will find even better prices on the 2018 models such as the x1500h, x3500h, etc. Personally I'd recommend the 2019 models given they have eARC, HDCP 2.3, and are likely to get more meaningful firmware upgrades going forward.

 

[peng]

Not sure that even pure direct bypasses ADC. It seems it just shuts down analog video section, display and maybe (just maybe) another features. I think that signal is always ADC... no reasons to implement a pure analog pre-amp in this kind of product when you can already get a +90db SNR, a low THD and a good DR. It's a consumer AVR, no more but no less.

I am sure if the analog line inputs are used, and if it is the AVR-X3400H and other 2017 models above the X3400H. So I would be equally sure if the 2018 models have the same block diagram I have seen. The bypass switch, shown as relay contact, was clearly shown in the block diagram.

 

[peng]

Hi guys,
My first post ever. I read throught all 6 pages of this review cos soon I'll be on the market for new AVR which can handle 5.1.2 and I was thinking mostly about Denon AVR-X3600H. Now, i dont know much about measurements and everything that you talked about on last 6 pages. So to cut the story short, which AVR would you recommend for me? My needs are 5.1.2, atmos and dts-x, HDR10+, DV. I know that 3600 can handle 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 but to have spare 2 ch I dont mind. And I would definetly not go over 1500$. I know that this is a thread about 3500 and not about "all the rest AVRs" but considering that Denon was the brand I was looking forward after my Onkyo tx-nr 709 failed me I would really appriciate your opinions for 1500$ AVR.

Thanks

One clear advantage the X3600H has is that you can select the 11.1 configuration so that you can assign the preout front left and right channels to an external power amp and it would physically disconnect the internal power amps for those two channels because those two internal amps would be used for the surround channels such as the Atmos, heights etc. If you only use 7 speakers, that's fine, but still select 11.1 (yes it is a cheat but it works). This is only if you use external amps otherwise the feature means nothing.

 

[SynthesisCinema]

Not really, the x4500h and the sr7013 are the twins. Sr6013 is in between, until this year when the sr6014 became the real twin with the x3600h, well, almost..

I know that! But if you compare the pictures of internals (powersupply is in better position, mainboards looks same to X4500H, better heatsinks than in X3500h) and tested power output measurements you see the lower model matching Denons higher model! SR6013 measured the same as Denon X4500H, so with lower price it´s clearly better purchase assuming it has the needed features for customer. X4500H has few more extras sure.

https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3037-marantz-sr6013
Marantz declared an output power of SR6013 at 185 W, as did Denon for a 6-ohm load. We conducted measurements for 8 and 4 Ω (setting the impedance selector in the appropriate mode). For 8 ohms, SR6013 power is 151 W in one channel.
2 x 147 W in two, with connecting the next one decreases, but 5 x 100 W and 9 x 50 W are still good results - identical to Denon's.

The noise separation is 82 dB, which is slightly better than the Denon AVR-X4500H.

The frequency characteristics (Fig. 1) are again very similar to those of Denon - the drop at 10 Hz is negligible, and at 100 kHz it does not exceed -1.5 dB for 8 Ω and -2 for 4 Ω. The SR6013, like the AVR-X4500H, can be praised for a clean spectrum in Fig. 2, the strongest harmonic is the second one, but its level is low -91 dB, the third one is still a few dB lower.

 

[peng]

I know that! But if you compare the pictures of internals (powersupply is in better position, mainboards looks same to X4500H, better heatsinks than in X3500h) and tested power output measurements you see the lower model matching Denons higher model! SR6013 measured the same as Denon X4500H, so with lower price it´s clearly better purchase assuming it has the needed features for customer. X4500H has few more extras sure.

https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/3037-marantz-sr6013
Marantz declared an output power of SR6013 at 185 W, as did Denon for a 6-ohm load. We conducted measurements for 8 and 4 Ω (setting the impedance selector in the appropriate mode). For 8 ohms, SR6013 power is 151 W in one channel.
2 x 147 W in two, with connecting the next one decreases, but 5 x 100 W and 9 x 50 W are still good results - identical to Denon's.

The noise separation is 82 dB, which is slightly better than the Denon AVR-X4500H.

The frequency characteristics (Fig. 1) are again very similar to those of Denon - the drop at 10 Hz is negligible, and at 100 kHz it does not exceed -1.5 dB for 8 Ω and -2 for 4 Ω. The SR6013, like the AVR-X4500H, can be praised for a clean spectrum in Fig. 2, the strongest harmonic is the second one, but its level is low -91 dB, the third one is still a few dB lower.

I understand your points. In fact when I compared the X4400H, SR6012 and SR7012's schematics page by page, they were all extremely similar to each other. The SR6012 (hence the SR6013 by extrapolations..) basically has a slightly smaller power supply and missing some minor features. In fact, based on their schematics/parts list again, I don't know why the SR6012/6013's THD+N were rated 0.08% whereas the 4400/4500/7012/7013 were rated 0.05%.

As far as the measurements you listed and Maty often linked, I have no faith in those. The impression I got from them is that their results seemed all over the map, no sign of any quality assurance/consistency, looked almost random, really should be ignored.., that's just me 2 cents.

I would trust the German site Audiovison.de way more so that I would on that Maty linked site. Have you seen the measurements there at Audiovision.de? Their results are more consistent, over time and their overall presentation are more confident inspiring but they did not provide as much technical details than Audiosciencereview, Audioholics or even that confusing audio.com.pl For power output comparison purpose only, it is okay though.

Between the 6013, and 4500, I would definitely go for the 4500 unless I could get the 6013 for much less.