Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[peng]

It means the Denon will clip before your Monolith can produce full power increasing distortion and reducing the signal quality and artificially limiting the power output of your amplifier. So it's not a good match for the Denon.

No evidence of that at all.

 

[peng]

Looks like SINAD is almost 100 at 1.6 in full preamp so I guess I may want to grab a 4 channel amp for my atmos

You likely don't need an ext. amp for the 4 Atmos channels but again it depends on the speaker sensitivity, how loud you listen, and the distance. Have you figured out the preout voltage you need yet?

By the way, at 1.6 V in non preamp mode SINAD is >80 dB. That's not clipping, I know Amir called it that though...

There is no harm using ext. amps for all channels regardless.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

You likely don't need an ext. amp for the 4 Atmos channels but again it depends on the speaker sensitivity, how loud you listen, and the distance. Have you figured out the preout voltage you need yet?

By the way, at 1.6 V in non preamp mode SINAD is >80 dB. That's not clipping, I know Amir called it that though...

There is no harm using ext. amps for all channels regardless.

But 80db is way lower than in preamp mode. Wouldnt that be easy to detect in real life?

 

[amper42]

You likely don't need an ext. amp for the 4 Atmos channels but again it depends on the speaker sensitivity, how loud you listen, and the distance. Have you figured out the preout voltage you need yet?

By the way, at 1.6 V in non preamp mode SINAD is >80 dB. That's not clipping, I know Amir called it that though...

There is no harm using ext. amps for all channels regardless.

If you use any of the Denon 4700 internal amps ie for ATMOS or anything else it leaves the internal amps engaged which reduces performance and keeps the 4700 running hot. Using full Preamp mode is a superior option for better performance and cooling.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

But 80db is way lower than in preamp mode. Wouldnt that be easy to detect in real life?

As a very rough analogy. If you play music at 100dB SPL the distortion is at 20dB SPL that is about hearing a leaf fall next to a jack hammer. Also when all is quiet in your house the noise floor is most likely around 30dB SPL or more and so the distortion will be 10dB more quiet than your house… so it is very very unlikely you hear any distortion.

I have very high SINAD power amps for all channels on an AKM X3700 in full preamp, but I am telling you, if you are on a budget rather spend the money on better speakers. Much better for sound quality for your buck. I am very very hard pressed to hear a difference if any at all in my setup with the power amps in or out when playing at reasonable levels. (Regardless I am nonetheless disappointed at the new X3800 as Denon had the chance to use a much better DAC chip now).

 

[Beershaun]

No evidence of that at all.

? It certainly falls off a cliff after 1.4v. whatever you want to call it between 1.4 and 2.v it certainly is not in a happy place.

 

[dlaloum]

Anyone know what this spec for the Monolith 7x 7x200Wattts amp is?

I saw this on the specs:

Input Sensitivity for Full Rated Power

1.6 volts

So if the above is the piece of info needed, how does it apply to the 4700h?
I am considering the 3800h, 4700h and the RZ50 right now.
My 4 atmos speaker will be run by the AVR ideally which means only the 3800h can do the selective pre-amp mode. Otherwise I would need another 4 channel amp for the 4700 if I wanted to go all preamp mode.
That and Dirac were the main reasons I looked at the 3800h for.

But 80db is way lower than in preamp mode. Wouldnt that be easy to detect in real life?

-80db is 0.01% THD+N - it is a long way from the audibility threhold - and there are heaps of highly regarded audiophile amps, that are rated 0.01% (or worse!) for THD+N.

In reality the audibility threshold is somewhere around -60db SINAD or circa 0.1% THD+N (ie: 10 times higher!)

 

[dlaloum]

? It certainly falls off a cliff after 1.4v. whatever you want to call it between 1.4 and 2.v it certainly is not in a happy place.

Even at 2V it is still above 70db (or 0.03% THD+N) - that is OK

And keep in mind, that 90% of listening is done within the first watt, and pretty much 99% within the first 5W - the rest is headroom for brief peaks

So you should focus on what is happening in that area.... for a momentary (measured in ms) peak at 100W, no one is going to notice THD, even if it reaches 1%

Also keep in mind that most speakers have THD around the 1% or higher, and in the bass regions usually substantially higher - exceptional speakers can get down to 0.5% or even lower (very very rare) - but it gives you an idea of the orders of magnitude we are talking about.

 

[Rockman2]

You likely don't need an ext. amp for the 4 Atmos channels but again it depends on the speaker sensitivity, how loud you listen, and the distance. Have you figured out the preout voltage you need yet?

By the way, at 1.6 V in non preamp mode SINAD is >80 dB. That's not clipping, I know Amir called it that though...

There is no harm using ext. amps for all channels regardless

Another question 4700 or 4800? I have 2 Martin logan subs. They have ARC room correction that can be done with a mic or the iPhone ap. Would Dirac still be a benefit or would I do just as well saving the money and going with the 4700?

Thanks

 

[HarmonicTHD]

-80db is 0.01% THD+N - it is a long way from the audibility threhold - and there are heaps of highly regarded audiophile amps, that are rated 0.01% (or worse!) for THD+N.

In reality the audibility threshold is somewhere around -60db SINAD or circa 0.1% THD+N (ie: 10 times higher!)

Do you have any evidence for your 60db claim?

We all know just something is supposedly HighEnd doesn’t make it a reference.

 

[dlaloum]

Do you have any evidence for your 60db claim?

We all know just something is supposedly HighEnd doesn’t make it a reference.

This article provides an overview:

The Audibility of Distortion At Bass Frequencies

Want to know how well your sound system reproduces bass? We discuss the audibility of distortion in bass and ways bass reproduction in audio systems can fall short of of a listeners expectations.

www.audioholics.com

Based on a Fielder and Benjamin AES study (with material copied from that study)

Lowest perceptible THD in the study, was 0.2% for 4th Harmonic @ 110db - so 60db / 0.1% (half the level of the lowest perceptibly harmonic distortion, from the study), seems a fairly safe benchmark level.

Noise is far more perceptible to us than distortion is - and many components have very low noise, with much higher THD... components with high noise get a caning (deservedly!)

 

[hmt]

Yep. IMD is way worse (at least in speakers) as shown by Erin earlier this year. THD must be really high order to be audible at such levels.

 

[amper42]

Another question 4700 or 4800? I have 2 Martin logan subs. They have ARC room correction that can be done with a mic or the iPhone ap. Would Dirac still be a benefit or would I do just as well saving the money and going with the 4700?

Thanks

If I had this choice I would go with the Denon 4700 especially if I could find one with the AKM DAC. The Denon 4800 does not have a front HDMI port like the 4700. That port is nice for REW testing. I also find the Audyssey Multi-EQ app for iPad is all I need for EQ. I would not be willing to pay extra for Dirac on top of the already high $2500 for a 4800. I don't need four sub ports. I have two sub cabinets, a 15" HSU and a dual 15" VMPS sub. Those two subs can absolutely shake the room.

Used 4700 AVRs with AKM sell in the $1200 range or new units can be found for $1499. I don't see a reason to pay $1000 more for a Denon 4800 and even more for Dirac.
https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X4700H-Ultra-Channel-Receiver/dp/B089Y5KMFQ/

If I absolutely had to have Dirac, I would buy the Onkyo RZ50. It has Dirac now. No waiting. Implementation tested and complete.
https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-RZ50-9-2CH-Network-Receiver/dp/B09D8SB7DN/

 

[KMO]

Also keep in mind that most speakers have THD around the 1% or higher, and in the bass regions usually substantially higher - exceptional speakers can get down to 0.5% or even lower (very very rare) - but it gives you an idea of the orders of magnitude we are talking about.

And the THD of the speakers will be massively higher than normal at the volume levels where the pre-amp output starts to suffer.

The SINAD performance drop-off that the pre-out is suffering due to the internal amps clipping is nothing compared to the SINAD performance drop-off of the speakers at this high volume. If you plotted the SINAD graph for the speakers against voltage on the same scale, the speakers' line is a long way below, and dropping faster.

 

[peng]

But 80db is way lower than in preamp mode. Wouldnt that be easy to detect in real life?

He you are one of those golden ears, or just happen to have very discerning hearing ability then I guess yes..., but....

Take a look of the following example, that's just one I quickly remember and is about the Yamaha AV preamp processors, there are more if you are interested:

Yamaha AVENTAGE 5200 Series 11CH Processor/Amplifier Review

Yamaha is on their 3rd generation of separates in the Aventage line with their new 11-channel CX-A5200 AV Processor and MX-A5200 amplifier. Read our review to find out if they are a worthy successor.

www.audioholics.com

Quotes from the review:

I wanted to verify if this problem plagued the CX-A5100 so I measured them side by side before swapping out my old CX-A5100 to review the CX-A5200. I ran identical tests on the CX-A5100 and CX-A5200 to show illustrate the differences in distortion at 2.7Vrms output for XLR and Unbalanced. As a reference, 2.7Vrms is almost the full voltage required for the MX-A5200 to reach max rated power.

While 23dB sounds like a really big number, it's important to note that the overall distortion level is still quite low for the CX-A5200 model and below the threshold of audibility in my testing. While I'm not happy about this result, as it certainly is NOT State-of-the-Art (SOTA), it never diminished my enjoyment of this product even during my critical listening sessions. However, if you want the very best performance from the CX-A5200, I recommend using the unbalanced outputs for the front channels.

CX-A5100:
Brown: Unbal - 90dB @ 1kHz
Red: Bal -95dB @ 1kHz

CX-A5200:
Purple: Unbal -88dB @ 1kHz
Blue: Bal -72dB @ 1kHz

So in this example, as experience as Gene, who has very high performance/expensive speakers, he obviously didn't feel going from 95 dB SINAD to 72 dB SINAD measured on his bench was an audible issue.

Here you are talking about going from 97 dB to about 82 dB at 1.6 V preamp output to drive the Monolith amp to its rated 200 W output.
Even at 2 V, that is when the Monolith will be driven to output 316 W that is well beyond it's own clipping point, the Denon's preamp's SINAD of 75 dB (from Amir's dashboard) is still higher than the Yamaha's CX-A5200 preamp/processor's 72 dB.

Also note that at 2.7 V XLR (CX-A5200), the RCA's would be only 1.35 V!!

This is another reason I objected to Amir's use of the term "clipping" in his pre out measurements, not that he is wrong as it depends on how you define the clipping point, but is misleading, for people who are not too technically oriented.

Again, don't worry about the 82 dB SINAD at 1.6 V preamp output that correspond to 200 W power amp output from the Monolith amp that are being referenced to. Even it you can detect such level of distortions, it would only be when you push the amps (pre and power) to the point well beyond their corresponding clipping points, say if we define that to be at 0.1%, not Amir's "knee point". Special note: In this case, the knee point behaves in a non typical way, in that the increase actually became more gentle as levels went higher, say at above 1.7 V.

Keep in mind, at 1.6 V, non preamp mode, SINAD 82 dB is about 22 dB higher than the Monolith 200 W power amp's SINAD (0.1% is 60 dB) so it is a good match if you ask me..

Monoprice Monolith 7-Channel Amplifier Review

The Monoprice Monolith is an astounding 7-channel, 200wpc amplifier with two massive teroidal transformers delivering gobs of power and textbook performance at a value price point. Our amp of the year

www.audioholics.com

 

[amper42]

Keep in mind, at 1.6 V, non preamp mode, SINAD 82 dB is about 12 dB higher than the Monolith 200 W power amp's SINAD (0.1% is 60 dB) so it is a good match if you ask me..

Monoprice Monolith 7-Channel Amplifier Review

The Monoprice Monolith is an astounding 7-channel, 200wpc amplifier with two massive teroidal transformers delivering gobs of power and textbook performance at a value price point. Our amp of the year

www.audioholics.com

If you review Gene's Monolith measurements they are far better than the 0.1% quoted in your post for use below 300W at 4 ohms or below 200W in 8 ohms. The Monolith measures 98.4dB SNR in Gene's article which is a fine match for the 97dB measurements of the AKM Denon 4700 in preamp mode.

Users can obviously run the Denon 4700 without full preamp mode, it will certainly work. I notice a difference in preamp mode with the Monolith 7x200. Some may not? If you can't hear a difference, simply place your hand on the 4700 after running it an hour and you will feel the heat difference. If you have spent a few dollars on end game speakers it's certainly worth trying full preamp mode.

 

[peng]

If you review Gene's Monolith measurements they are far better than the 0.1% quoted in your post for use below 300W at 4 ohms or below 200W in 8 ohms. The Monolith measures 98.4dB SNR in Gene's article which is a fine match for the 97dB measurements of the AKM Denon 4700 in preamp mode.

Users can obviously run the Denon 4700 without full preamp mode, it will certainly work. I notice a difference in preamp mode with the Monolith 7x200. Some may not? If you can't hear a difference, simply place your hand on the 4700 after running it an hour and you will feel the heat difference. If you have spent a few dollars on end game speakers it's certainly worth trying full preamp mode.

I did review the measurements, as you can see I even attached the summarizing tables Gene presented!

Obviously you are right about the Monolith's 98.4 dB, in that sense it would out match the 4700, preamp mode or not. Not to confuse Gabriel though, I would emphasize that the 4700's SNR is adequate probably for most users. Put it that way, talk about in real life, my much older 4400 is quieter than my AV8801 such that I had to turn the volume well pass 0 to hear any hiss from a couple feet and it is silent under all conditions from 11 feet.

If we are to use the graphs for comparison, as I mentioned before too, it is much preferred, so no disagreement there. But then you have to compare graphs to graphs. Of course the preamp mode graph shows better SINAD at above 1.4 V, but up to 1.6 V, the non preamp mode graph is still a good match to the Monolth amp, or at least an adequate match, on paper and in terms of SINAD anyway.

I highlighted the non preamp mode performance not because I don't prefer preamp mode but because GabrielPhoto specifically asked: "But 80db is way lower than in preamp mode. Wouldn't that be easy to detect in real life?" I know you said you noticed a difference in your application but you also said, some may not. I did repeat myself making the point that it would depend on one's speaker sensitivity, spl requirement, and distance, among others. Another point is, as repeated many times on ASR and other forums, people who did subjective measurements, while useful and appreciated, their perceived results (difference, better, worse...) are almost always anecdotal unless the test protocols are fully disclosed such as whether they were done sighted, blind, double blind. People may think the difference heard is so obvious, even night and day to them, yet there have been studies that showed that such obvious difference would disappear or reversed in blind tests. Not all such reported tests are reliable I suppose, but I would some of them were, such as Harman's. So, it is in fact a tough question to answer in terms of "....to detect in real life...". My suggestion to Gabriel is just based on the available data. To know the truth (if there is such a thing) is not going to be easy, or even possible, for reasons stated. One can tell him it would be easy to detect because amper42 could (just a fictitious example..), others, say me (also just a fictitious example) would say, no I doubt you can, because I can't..

I would add in my recommendations to @GabrielPhoto so far, that he can always try both modes, and return the extra power amp channels (needed to test preamp mode) if he cannot detect a difference. Though the fact remain, are the perceived difference real? To me, that would remain an unknown unless he could actual do such apple to apple AB compare the modes in DBT at home.

By the way, on a side note, you, and GabrielPhoto can also compare the following two graphs, that would be the 4700's combined SINAD vs the Monolith's power amp SINAD vs output level:

Don't you think even when comparing the Denon (again, complete with preamp+power amp) with the Monolith power amp only, the results are very comparable?
If you use the 4 ohm graphs to compare, the Denon's SINAD, at -86 dB versus the Monolith's 0.007% (approx., by eyeballing only), that is about -83 dB, the Denon (combo effects), actually looked better on paper. Keep in mind we are comparing results from two different benches, both using the Audio Precision instrument with presumably comparable accuracies, so a few dB difference doesn't mean one is better, but it is reasonable to say the two are likely comparable for this one particular metric.

 

[MarcT]

If I had this choice I would go with the Denon 4700 especially if I could find one with the AKM DAC. The Denon 4800 does not have a front HDMI port like the 4700. That port is nice for REW testing. I also find the Audyssey Multi-EQ app for iPad is all I need for EQ. I would not be willing to pay extra for Dirac on top of the already high $2500 for a 4800. I don't need four sub ports. I have two sub cabinets, a 15" HSU and a dual 15" VMPS sub. Those two subs can absolutely shake the room.

Used 4700 AVRs with AKM sell in the $1200 range or new units can be found for $1499. I don't see a reason to pay $1000 more for a Denon 4800 and even more for Dirac.
https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X4700H-Ultra-Channel-Receiver/dp/B089Y5KMFQ/

If I absolutely had to have Dirac, I would buy the Onkyo RZ50. It has Dirac now. No waiting. Implementation tested and complete.
https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-RZ50-9-2CH-Network-Receiver/dp/B09D8SB7DN/

Darn, I don't remember Amazon having a price like that a few weeks ago when I bought my 4700 from BB for several hundred more. Should I return mine and pick this up from Amazon? I can return my 4700 until January.

I will say, coming from my AVR-X5200W that lost its left front channel, something about this 4700 just doesn't seem to sound as good to me. I mainly notice it in movies when the musical score is playing, which is mainly in the front L/R channels. The score just doesn't sound as smooth and "musical" sounding. Yes, yes, I know! Subjective.

I have the 4700 set up just like I had the 5200 set up, including speaker distances and levels. No Audyssey.

I'm also wondering if I should bite the bullet and try to find a nice used condition AVR-X6700 or an open box one. I say that because the 6700 has closer to the amplifier design and topology of my 5200.

 

[RichB]

I did review the measurements, as you can see I even attached the summarizing tables Gene presented!

Obviously you are right about the Monolith's 98.4 dB, in that sense it would out match the 4700, preamp mode or not. Not to confuse Gabriel though, I would emphasize that the 4700's SNR is adequate probably for most users. Put it that way, talk about in real life, my much older 4400 is quieter than my AV8801 such that I had to turn the volume well pass 0 to hear any hiss from a couple feet and it is silent under all conditions from 11 feet.

If we are to use the graphs for comparison, as I mentioned before too, it is much preferred, so no disagreement there. But then you have to compare graphs to graphs. Of course the preamp mode graph shows better SINAD at above 1.4 V, but up to 1.6 V, the non preamp mode graph is still a good match to the Monolth amp, or at least an adequate match, on paper and in terms of SINAD anyway.

I highlighted the non preamp mode performance not because I don't prefer preamp mode but because GabrielPhoto specifically asked: "But 80db is way lower than in preamp mode. Wouldn't that be easy to detect in real life?" I know you said you noticed a difference in your application but you also said, some may not. I did repeat myself making the point that it would depend on one's speaker sensitivity, spl requirement, and distance, among others. Another point is, as repeated many times on ASR and other forums, people who did subjective measurements, while useful and appreciated, their perceived results (difference, better, worse...) are almost always anecdotal unless the test protocols are fully disclosed such as whether they were done sighted, blind, double blind. People may think the difference heard is so obvious, even night and day to them, yet there have been studies that showed that such obvious difference would disappear or reversed in blind tests. Not all such reported tests are reliable I suppose, but I would some of them were, such as Harman's. So, it is in fact a tough question to answer in terms of "....to detect in real life...". My suggestion to Gabriel is just based on the available data. To know the truth (if there is such a thing) is not going to be easy, or even possible, for reasons stated. One can tell him it would be easy to detect because amper42 could (just a fictitious example..), others, say me (also just a fictitious example) would say, no I doubt you can, because I can't..

I would add in my recommendations to @GabrielPhoto so far, that he can always try both modes, and return the extra power amp channels (needed to test preamp mode) if he cannot detect a difference. Though the fact remain, are the perceived difference real? To me, that would remain an unknown unless he could actual do such apple to apple AB compare the modes in DBT at home.

By the way, on a side note, you, and GabrielPhoto can also compare the following two graphs, that would be the 4700's combined SINAD vs the Monolith's power amp SINAD vs output level:

Don't you think even when comparing the Denon (again, complete with preamp+power amp) with the Monolith power amp only, the results are very comparable?
If you use the 4 ohm graphs to compare, the Denon's SINAD, at -86 dB versus the Monolith's 0.007% (approx., by eyeballing only), that is about -83 dB, the Denon (combo effects), actually looked better on paper. Keep in mind we are comparing results from two different benches, both using the Audio Precision instrument with presumably comparable accuracies, so a few dB difference doesn't mean one is better, but it is reasonable to say the two are likely comparable for this one particular metric.

I love measurements, I love measurements that are not limited to 1 kHz more

- Rich

 

[peng]

I love measurements, I love measurements that are not limited to 1 kHz more

- Rich

Me too. I also love it when manufacturers published their own measurements that are not limited to the 1 kHz tests.