JRC 8080 slew rate 5V/μs that explains a lot
What per chance does 5V/μs explain or are you hiding your head after you reconsidered that statement?
JRC 8080 slew rate 5V/μs that explains a lot
If they put these menial slow op amps there, it explains why these AVRs (Denon) sound so tragic to me. I returned Denon because it had a flat, indistinct sound without bass, even in the cinema. I wrote somewhere that SR6013 (HDAM) sounds better to me than AVC4700 (probably OP) and best SR8015 (latest HDAM) but it's still not enough for my stereo because OPs in my dac have a slew rate of 27V and 28V and in the power amplifier I have jfet and mosfet power transistors, so the luxury slew rate of the whole stereo. HDAM is made of discrete transistors and it is possible that it has a higher slew rate despite having worse measurements than Denon. A higher slew rate means a higher impulse response, dynamics, separation of musical instruments and their colors ..... etc. That's probably why Marantz sounds better to someone, which would mean that Marantz users can hear betterWhat per chance does 5V/μs explain or are you hiding your head after you reconsidered that statement?
I had/have no knowledge of slew rate so I did a quick google search as far as whether or not 5V/µs would result in poor sound quality. Can you show us the math on why this value is not adequate, and if so, what would be better, and why? Thanks.A blind test? I made an opinion on the sound of Denon after ten seconds of listening to my favorite music that I have been listening to for several years. I am rather surprised by how many people are satisfied with the sound of Denon, or rather it proves that most people are deaf and parrot the opinions of others. Search the youtube slew rate and watch a few videos. Such OPs cannot properly monitor the input signal and basically average it. This is basically the end of all discussions as to why Marantz is a bit more expensive and sounds better than Denon, and it shows the absurdity of the results of the local AVR and AV processor tests. Until the slew rate is measured here and the squarewave response is useless.
I had/have no knowledge of slew rate so I did a quick google search as far as whether or not 5V/µs would result in poor sound quality. Can you show us the math on why this value is not adequate, and if so, what would be better, and why? Thanks.
For example, I plugged in values on what an acceptable slew rate would be for a 20 volt signal(50 watts, a lot for a tweeter AFAIK) at 15KHz and came up with 1.8, which is far below the slew rate of the Denon OP amp. Also, I read that too high of a slew rate can be detrimental as it increases current and EMI. I used high frequency because it seems this is where slew rate is meaningful/applicable.
Also, you specifically commented that the Denon AVR sounded deficient in the *bass*, but it seems lower frequencies don't have a very high slew rate requirement, so it seems highly unlikely that a slew rate of 5V/µs would have any audible affect on low frequencies? Again, perhaps my understanding is incorrect, so any clarification on your part would be helpful. Thanks!
Guys, I'm sorry, but I don't have time right now, just in speed. Nowhere did I write that my power amplifier has 28V/µs. This is ridiculous for a power amplifier, but unfortunately still a common value today. I wrote .... because OPs in my dac have a slew rate of 27V and 28V ..... This means that I have two OPs in the DAC signal path (OPA1612, OPA827). For completeness, I will add that my power amplifier has a slew rate at 100W/4Ω 90V / µs. It's a custom version of the 200-watt version I didn't want(only less power because I have a sensitive speaker). 200W version has a measured slew rate of 200W/4Ω 185V/µs.
I use google translator for reading and writing, so I understand that sometimes it can make nonsense, especially in technical terms.
A blind test? I made an opinion on the sound of Denon after ten seconds of listening to my favorite music that I have been listening to for several years. I am rather surprised by how many people are satisfied with the sound of Denon, or rather it proves that most people are deaf and parrot the opinions of others. Search the youtube slew rate and watch a few videos. Such OPs cannot properly monitor the input signal and basically average it. This is basically the end of all discussions as to why Marantz is a bit more expensive and sounds better than Denon, and it shows the absurdity of the results of the local AVR and AV processor tests. Until the slew rate is measured here and the squarewave response is useless.
Now this is getting really funny! We (not just me) have told you the Marantz has the same preamp/volume control ICs and DACs, but has an extra HDAM buffer stage at the end. So whatever the slew rate of the HDAM, let's assume it is infinite, or 100,000 V/µs , it doesn't matter because it will still be limited by the parts upstream, in fact it can only slow things down as the signal has to go through an extra stage. And by the way, in fact some Marantz models such as the SR6014 (so quite possibly the SR7015 as well), just like the Denon AVR-X3600H and X4500H, have the same OPA used right behind the HDAMs, and are also used in other parts of the signal chain.
So logically speaking, this is another proof that based on what you have said about those OPAs being the reasons, your claim of the "Denon" sound being horrible, tragic vs the "Marantz" sound cannot be real, but your Placebo, expectation bias induced imaginary!! Still, logic aside, I believe you heard what you heard, but it would have to be for other reasons, such as messed up settings, not comparing apples to apples, some defective parts involved etc.
That occurred to me too. Unfortunately, I can't get to the service manual of the new receivers, so I don't know a lot of details. HDAM is only an operational amplifier composed of discrete transistors, but no one knows the parameters. The only thing I found was this:@peng - sometimes you have to let the crazy posts go.
Anyone whose actually setup a Denon 3700/4700 knows there are lots of settings to configure besides just an Audyssey run to attain the exact sound you are looking for. It's not like my Hegel H90 where you simply turn it on and that's what you get.
If the user doesn't spend some time understanding and trying the various settings I can see how after 10 seconds he might make a snap judgement out of a lack of understanding.
That occurred to me too. Unfortunately, I can't get to the service manual of the new receivers, so I don't know a lot of details. HDAM is only an operational amplifier composed of discrete transistors, but no one knows the parameters. The only thing I found was this:
1992 - HDAM
The original Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Module (HDAM) was first used in the PM-99SE integrated amplifier in 1992. The HDAM is a stamp-sized high-performance amp unit with approximately 70dB of raw gain, with a slew gate of 70 to 80 V per microsecond that can be utilized throughout the audio signal chain.
I tried different receivers and connections but the only thing I didn't try was to turn on my power amplifier and stereo box in the SR8015 preout front. I think this will be a crucial test. I plan it permanently as HT bypass so that I don't have a special front speaker for cinema and stereo, but there is no time.
Just don't accuse me of bias expectation. I haven't had an oscilloscope in a long time, but I'm just demanding and I'm not deaf.
@peng This isn't an argument or word ward. So I didn't have bad expectations from Denon. I bought it for a review here and sold the SR6013 pointlessly cheaply. I like the Denon design much more, it has a nicer and more practical front panel, but the front panel doesn't play. The first thing I did was turn on pure direct and play hires music. That was the first ten seconds I almost had a heart attack. Denon cost one and a half of what I earn in a month (it's expensive in Europe). I enclose two old photos setting levels Denon4700 vs Marantz6013. It needs to be related to the front L. Watch the woofer and it still didn't play really bass. After buying the SR8015, everything was ok again.
Don't distort what I wrote. My stereo is without bass and treble corrections, room corrections and without channel balance. That's what I've listened to, and with AVRs it's like Pure Direct mode. I wrote that the first thing I did after turning on Denon was to set up Pure Direct. That was the stereo shock. Somewhere I wrote something like it was a boring, dull, lifeless, non-dynamic sound from an old radio, that's true. The fact that most people add volume and a second subwoofer, especially that it clinks and bangs, is another matter and it's just their business. So don't tell me that there are different setting options, including levels, it only concerned home theater settings and you can see it in that photo.Good morning oupee, let me be 100% clear, I have said from the beginning that I believe you heard what you heard. So no, I would never say you imagined the difference, other than it could be a "possibility", and even that, I mainly meant to say it is often a good possibility in general but to me it is obvious that you heard something that is quite unexpected, otherwise you wouldn't have used description such as horrible, tragic, now even heart attack, and within the first ten seconds. So like I have said before, something isn't right, and "settings" are much more than just the "levels" you attached, an AVR is quite a complicated device, something (again setting is just one example, another possibility..).
Don't distort what I wrote. My stereo is without bass and treble corrections, room corrections and without channel balance. That's what I've listened to, and with AVRs it's like Pure Direct mode. I wrote that the first thing I did after turning on Denon was to set up Pure Direct. That was the stereo shock. Somewhere I wrote something like it was a boring, dull, lifeless, non-dynamic sound from an old radio, that's true. The fact that most people add volume and a second subwoofer, especially that it clinks and bangs, is another matter and it's just their business. So don't tell me that there are different setting options, including levels, it only concerned home theater settings and you can see it in that photo.
In 95% of all audio devices, the most dusty is the OP NE5532, which has a slew rate of 9V and is almost twice as fast as the JRC8080, with the overview that it could be written that it is twice as good. The JRC8080 does not belong to the Hi-Fi signal path and is a disgrace. If you do not know how the slew rate will affect the sound, then we will not solve it and I take it as a finished thing.
I only have one personal question and don't take it wrong or offensive! We are from several countries and continents and there is a different mentality and expression everywhere, so I don't want to be misunderstood but I would like to know what your Hi-Fi setup is. Sometimes I meet teenagers on the forums who have old, repaired Marantz, NAD, Rotel .... but they have learned a few theories, formulas ... etc. I would just like to know what I am up to and whatever answer I take, thank you and peace.
@peng How come you know so much about AVR's do you work with them?or is it just plain interrese?Your contributions are from a high standard.