Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[North_Sky]

I watched Jaws last night...very very good replay value...lots of fun, great flick.
That's from 45 years ago. Never looked so good, and never sounded so good (4K Atomas). Fun is cheap today (inexpensive). It's this virus that is expensive and no fun.

 

[kokishin]

@amirm

I was out until late yesterday and missed the brouhaha.

I caught up this morning and I was amazed at the turnaround by Skylarlove1999!

You handled yourself with superb professionalism and patience. Not that I expected any less.

And as far as I know, no posts were deleted and no members received an infraction unlike the site where it all started.

You may have even won over new member Skylarlove1999.

As an aside, when I first joined ASR, I quickly discovered it was unique among all the other review sites. I saw how much effort you put into testing and posting your objective reviews. The fact that some equipment manufacturers are taking your reviews seriously and correcting product flaws speaks volumes as to the credibility of your reviews.

I also find the tone and culture of ASR very attractive as well; and that starts at the top. Lot's of smart folks here who try to help others in a neighborly manner.

I generally never donate to a website. After all, most of them get their revenue from advertisements. I decided early on to give you a small donation because of the reasons stated above.

Thanks and keep up the excellent work! You truly are the Chief Fun Officer.

All the best!

 

[polmuaddib]

While I agree on your other points, let me be candid for a moment: this seems a needlessly hyperbolic statement.
I do not believe you would be able to pick out a device with a SINAD of 85 among devices with SINADs of 120+.

Why do I say that:
Lets assume you have REALLY awesome speakers with a THD of -60dB at all frequencies (0.1% THD, completely unrealistic but good speakers manage that in higher freqs) and lets assume the worst case scenario: a direct addition of the distortions.

85dB SINAD device typical AVR performance
-85dB + (-60dB) = -59.986dB

12db SINAD device
-120dB + (-60dB) = -59.999dB

That's a whopping -0.013dB better SINAD. Good luck in hearing that in a blind test.

Now you also know the reason, why our Senpai often writes words to the effect: "it is most likely not an audible issue".

AVRs have other shortcomings, most notably:
- potentially low damping factor
- a lack of power, esp when a lot of channels are driven.
- crappy DSP processing done to the signal unless people use "pure direct" etc

E.g.:
My lil' Yammy has 70 Wpc 2 channels driven 20-20KHz. If split those 140 watts across 5 speakers that would be a whopping 28W.
Even if a Sub does the heavy lifting in terms of LFE effects, that will be the real reason of anemic or even distorted sound right there, when trying to push movie reference levels.

Also, as soon as I activate any of the DSP, the signal quality goes straight into the gutter.
Even I can hear that clearly and I am by no means a golden eared audiophile. :X

Please do not confuse issues in engineering with audible performance degradation. While these issues should definitely be resolved by the manufacturers, it's unlikely that you will notice them during real world operation. Most certainly not while being immersed and distracted by the actual musical content.
Don't know about you but when I listen to music I listen to harmonic tonality, instrument composition, dynamics, expression, rhythm .... but not for potentially audible distortion of my AVR.

I had an Onkyo 5530 AV PrePro for the last three years. My power amplifiers changed over those three years from Electrocompaniet 100wpc, Denon Poa 2200, Primare 30.5, i even tried Krell KSA 150s and in the end i was satisfied with Jeff Rowland 112. Those were for front L&R. For center i used denon poa 6600 mono block and after it changed. For surrounds and heights less powered amps. I was satisfied to a certain degree and then i went to an audio show and listen to some high end stuff. Even at the show where listening conditions are less then optimal, it was clear that my setup was inferior for 2 channel music. You don't need measurements to hear the difference. After some time i aquired a Jeff Rowland Capri preamp. I got that sound i heard at the shows. Now, 2 channel music sounds great.
So, clearly it was the AV PRe Pro at fault. Dac is not that important. I am certain i wouldn't hear a difference in a blind test between DACs, unless it was a lousy DAC in the mix.
So, damping factor, power issues are not a factor since i used external power amps. Pure option in AVRs and PrePros only matter for analog input, not for digital which is my primary source. I even tried PrePro's internal player (to rule out bad HDMI connection from PC and Bluray) and still there was difference.
Ok, you can factor in the conformation bias. But i wanted the PrePro to sound better so i could have one box to rule them all. As for the bias, i even wanted to hear the difference in power cables. For the love of god i can't hear the difference. And I want to. I like the esthetics of power cables. But absolutely can't hear the difference. Can't hear IC cables also. I am still amazed people hear it and pay 1000+ $ for them. There is still doubt in the back of my mind in spite of all the science that there might be something there, only i can't hear it. I know i must have bias, but where is it when i need it?
But i do hear the difference between AV PrePRo and quality stereo preamp. If i am not hearing 100+ SINAD vs 80 SINAD, then what am i hearing? It is not the difference in level matching, trust me, because i hear beautiful music on Capri even at lower volume levels and Onkyo wouldn't give me proper music even at very high levels.
And now I sold Onkyo PrePro, got myself Denon AVR 4500h thinking it will be like 3600h but with Auro (Should have bought 3600) and the sound is mediocre. Even worse then Onkyo PrePro. So, if the SINAD above 80 is not audible, then why is there a difference in sound quality between many devices i had and changed over the years? I am not being sarcastic, i am genuinly puzzled. Then there is some measurement that is not covered here. And all the time i am talking about preamp use, not the poweramps in AVR.

 

[SKBubba]

The first review I read here (don't remember what it was) I thought, oh yeah? Who is this guy? Then I noticed the "my technical background" link in his signature. I clicked on that, read it, and said oh, OK then.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

If i am not hearing 100+ SINAD vs 80 SINAD, then what am i hearing?

W/o measurements for both preamps and w/o having it heard myself, that question is impossible to answer.
Especially at low listening levels, SINAD of 80 should not be an issue, as the harmonics would be rendered below 0dB.

It is entirely possible that this is all in your head, do keep that in mind. Our senses are treacherous and you need to volume match within 0.1dB to make any sort of statement. No, deliberately trying lower volumes on the superior device does not work either, since your brain already perceives it as superior. As human beings we are simply not that objective.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

@amirm

I was out until late yesterday and missed the brouhaha.

I caught up this morning and I was amazed at the turnaround by Skylarlove1999!

You handled yourself with superb professionalism and patience. Not that I expected any less.

And as far as I know, no posts were deleted and no members received an infraction unlike the site where it all started.

You may have even won over new member Skylarlove1999.

As an aside, when I first joined ASR, I quickly discovered it was unique among all the other review sites. I saw how much effort you put into testing and posting your objective reviews. The fact that some equipment manufacturers are taking your reviews seriously and correcting product flaws speaks volumes as to the credibility of your reviews.

I also find the tone and culture of ASR very attractive as well; and that starts at the top. Lot's of smart folks here who try to help others in a neighborly manner.

I generally never donate to a website. After all, most of them get their revenue from advertisements. I decided early on to give you a small donation because of the reasons stated above.

Thanks and keep up the excellent work! You truly are the Chief Fun Officer.

All the best!

Amir and the members of this site absolutely won me over. Would still like two independent reviews: one for measurements and another for listening observations on familiar demo material to the reviewer. I know this is probably unrealistic. Just a suggestion to incorporate both the objective and subjective analysis.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

The first review I read here (don't remember what it was) I thought, oh yeah? Who is this guy? Then I noticed the "my technical background" link in his signature. I clicked on that, read it, and said oh, OK then.

Where were you yesterday when I could have used that help? LOL

 

[Skylarlove1999]

@amirm

I was out until late yesterday and missed the brouhaha.

I caught up this morning and I was amazed at the turnaround by Skylarlove1999!

You handled yourself with superb professionalism and patience. Not that I expected any less.

And as far as I know, no posts were deleted and no members received an infraction unlike the site where it all started.

You may have even won over new member Skylarlove1999.

As an aside, when I first joined ASR, I quickly discovered it was unique among all the other review sites. I saw how much effort you put into testing and posting your objective reviews. The fact that some equipment manufacturers are taking your reviews seriously and correcting product flaws speaks volumes as to the credibility of your reviews.

I also find the tone and culture of ASR very attractive as well; and that starts at the top. Lot's of smart folks here who try to help others in a neighborly manner.

I generally never donate to a website. After all, most of them get their revenue from advertisements. I decided early on to give you a small donation because of the reasons stated above.

Thanks and keep up the excellent work! You truly are the Chief Fun Officer.

All the best!

I have had a good amount of practice admitting when I am wrong. LOL. Boy was I wrong about Amir and his intentions. I appreciate all the members who had his back. Nice to know even if I was the recipient of the staunch defense.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

I watched Jaws last night...very very good replay value...lots of fun, great flick.
That's from 45 years ago. Never looked so good, and never sounded so good (4K Atomas). Fun is cheap today (inexpensive). It's this virus that is expensive and no fun.

Jaws looked incredible in 4k. All the natural light made for great HDR. Colors were very vivid but never ventured into oversaturated. The billboard sign with the shark with painted behind it has never looked so glorious. Atmos made the score really have the presence of another character.

 

[Promit]

Amir and the members of this site absolutely won me over. Would still like two independent reviews: one for measurements and another for listening observations on familiar demo material to the reviewer. I know this is probably unrealistic. Just a suggestion to incorporate both the objective and subjective analysis.

My counterpoint would be that this is a world which is not short for subjective listening impressions, often from people who quite frankly have much more of a reputation than Amir. (No comment on whether that rep is deserved.) I feel that ASR is not here to provide comprehensive product reviews, but to perform focused objective analysis of certain performance parameters, analyses which are sadly lacking in the audio world. We all have the internet and search engines nowadays, it's not crucial that everything about a product and all of the possible ways of looking at it be crammed into one site. Amir has added subjective listening in certain categories and reviews, but they're definitely not where the action is so to speak.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

My counterpoint would be that this is a world which is not short for subjective listening impressions, often from people who quite frankly have much more of a reputation than Amir. (No comment on whether that rep is deserved.) I feel that ASR is not here to provide comprehensive product reviews, but to perform focused objective analysis of certain performance parameters, analyses which are sadly lacking in the audio world. We all have the internet and search engines nowadays, it's not crucial that everything about a product and all of the possible ways of looking at it be crammed into one site. Amir has added subjective listening in certain categories and reviews, but they're definitely not where the action is so to speak.

You make a good point. Since he also has the measurements selfishly I would like to only check one place for a comprehensive review.

 

[polmuaddib]

W/o measurements for both preamps and w/o having it heard myself, that question is impossible to answer.
Especially at low listening levels, SINAD of 80 should not be an issue, as the harmonics would be rendered below 0dB.

It is entirely possible that this is all in your head, do keep that in mind. Our senses are treacherous and you need to volume match within 0.1dB to make any sort of statement. No, deliberately trying lower volumes on the superior device does not work either, since your brain already perceives it as superior. As human beings we are simply not that objective.

it is possible and i would love to try blind testing but it is almost to impossible to do that in home. On second thought, when i have the time and will i will record a song from different preout outputs and we can all test.

 

[carlob]

it is possible and i would love to try blind testing but it is almost to impossible to do that in home. On second thought, when i have the time and will i will record a song from different preout outputs and we can all test.

It is doable, you need a HDMI splitter and a remote controlled RCA switch (and a voltmeter). Ideally with a playstation as a source so you can burn a CD with a test tone and play it on the PS. Also a notebook with hdmi out.

 

[GXAlan]

I remember when Harman Kardon had the most "luxury" power amplifier in the world. It was AU$15,800 in 1983. Showing my age.

View attachment 69775

Sadly they all had a component inside them that universally failed.

W/o measurements for both preamps and w/o having it heard myself, that question is impossible to answer.
Especially at low listening levels, SINAD of 80 should not be an issue, as the harmonics would be rendered below 0dB..

One of the problems is that at lower volumes, SINAD also drops. Look at most of Amir’s curves.

 

[valerianf]

Thank you Armir for the high level of tests and comments coming from your reviews.
After many AVR from Marantz to lately Yamaha, I was guessing that I may buy my first Demon, as I need to switch to a 4k AVR.
After reading the X4700H review, I have big doubts about the 2020 Denon products line.
Nowadays modern content sources are using multi-channel HDMI.
Is it so difficult to implement a good multichannel sound pipeline?
If complying to HDMI 2.1 means excessive digital noise I will buy a 2019 model at black Friday.
I am nostalgic of the sound of my 1980 analog stereo Marantz unit!
Could somebody make a multichannel unit with same performance?

 

[RichB]

The volume control IC has tolerances that may explain why DUTs could measure differently in SINAD by a few dB, though there is definitely something wrong with the noise behavior when HDMI is involved in this case.

Below are the tolerances of SINADs between the volume IC used in the Denon/Marantz and Yamaha's AVRs/AVPs/Integrated amp:

Yamaha A-S801:
BD3483KS2........................... Typ. 0.0004 %, Max. 0.02 %

RX-A3070:
BD34703KS2........................ Typ. 0.0004 %, Max. 0.02 %

Denon/Marantz:
NJU72343AV........................ Typ. 0.0004 %, Max. 0.01 %

The DAC ICs ES9010KS2, AK4458, ES9006 used in such devices all have slightly better SINAD specs so as Dr. Rich of HTHF said before, the volume control IC was usually the bottleneck.

If true (Amir, do you have any opinion on this?), and if you look at the X4700H's SINAD, it is still within the tolerance spec of the NJU72343, and obviously the AK4458 as well.

Also, take a look of Denon AVR/Marantz AVP/AVR publish specs:

AV8805/AV7705's preout..................0.005 %, (that's 86 dB in SINAD)

AVR-X4500H/SR7013
amplifier output....................................0.05 % at rated output
analog input (Direct mode)..............0.005 % (again, that's 86 dB SINAD) at 1.2 V
D/A output..............................................0.008% (1 kHz, at 0 dB)

AVR-X3600H/SR6014
amplifier output....................................0.08% at rated output
analog input (Direct mode)..............0.005 % (again, that's 86 dB SINAD) at 1.2 V
D/A output..............................................0.008% (1 kHz, at 0 dB)

Based on the above figures, so far all the units ASR has measured were within D+M specifications, though depending on interpretation, the D/A output specs would have met or exceeded their specifications only if the internal power amps were disconnected.

Amir, or others who have read the spec sheets and SM's, any comments?

My source of info above were all Googleable, i.e. Rohm, NJR published data sheets for their volume control ICs, D+M's manual.

Thanks to @peng for pointing out that the 4700H meets the specifications, when the HDMI multi-tone test is excluded.
Faithful and complete reproduction of CD audio requires 0.0015% THD+N (measured at least from 20 Hz to 20 kHz) so clearly, this level of performance is not the goal.

The marketing is focused squarely on features:

The Denon AVR-X4700H 9.2 channel 8K AV receiver with 125W per channel fully supports 3D audio formats like Dolby Atmos®, Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization Technology, DTS:X®, DTS Virtual:X™, IMAX® Enhanced and Auro-3D®. Comes equipped with the latest in HDMI specifications such as 8K/60Hz and 4K/120Hz pass-through, VRR, ALLM, Dynamic HDR, HDR10+ and eARC support.

66 dB at rated power is about 11 bits of resolution.

The multi-tone HMDI performance, eyeballing, has 45 dB SINAD or 0.8% distortion.
Let's hope this a software correctable issue.

- Rich

 

[BsdKurt]

Once again I apologize. Sorry for creating so much drama. Hard to see a brand you love denigrated so profusely. Not an excuse just raw emotion.

Thank you for that. The tone of my post was over the top since you had already had calmed down and I missed that. I'm sorry for that and I'm happy the conversation returned civil.

 

[LTig]

One of the problems is that at lower volumes, SINAD also drops. Look at most of Amir’s curves.

SINAD drops because the noise is constant and the signal gets lower. Fortunately THD decreases as well (often faster) and finally disappears in the noise floor. So, as long as you do not hear the noise at low volumes you need not fear THD.

 

[amira]

Over here bragging about what you guys did to me. LOL. You guys are all a big joke. Make sure to get your donation in to the site. LOL. Do you feel special when Amir replies to you personally? I am sure he will boot me off this site ASAP.

Every....single.....review, at least one of you guys shows up for a week then disappears after ranting endlessly about how biased and unfair Amir is.

 

[LTig]

Every....single.....review, at least one of you guys shows up for a week then disappears after ranting endlessly about how biased and unfair Amir is.

He has changed (never seen such a quick change from Saulus to Paulus) and I hope he chooses to stay. His connections to the audio industry may be of worth some time.