markus
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How much do you need?And where do you find the necessary volume of the cabinet?
How much do you need?And where do you find the necessary volume of the cabinet?
Ever seen a speaker? That much.How much do you need?
Yep. How much volume do you think you need? 30l? Easily doable on-wall.Ever seen a speaker?
Well, that is funny because I actually have in wall mounted speakers in my home studio room. But it is not easy at all to build such an installation correctly (it took me months), and once it is built you cannot move things around anymore. You really have to plan things precisely and in advance (I modelled my room in a 3D renderer before building it). I also use EQ to compensate for the bass increase, and to correct the last few FR problematic areas. Furthermore, you need speakers that work in such an installation and they are not that common.Playing devil's advocat: Why not put speakers in or on a wall or even corners? Much simpler engineering, better efficiency and the speaker is out of the way (WAF).
Well, you get SBIR even with cardioid's or speakers in-wall as there's a floor, ceiling and back wall. So always compromises involved.Well, that is funny because I actually have in wall mounted speakers in my home studio room. But it is not easy at all to build such an installation correctly (it took me months), and once it is build you cannot move things around anymore. You really have to plan things precisely and in advance (I modelled my room in a 3D renderer before building it). Furthermore, you need speaker that work in such an installation and they are not that common.
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Long story short, not a feasible solution for 99.9% of domestic, non professional rooms.
As far as "on wall" speakers are concerned, if they are not cardioid designs, they are going to suffer from SBIR with the front wall (destructive reflection interference). To keep things simple, you will have cancellations starting at F=c/4*d with c=speed of sound and d=woofer to wall distance. Even if the speaker is right against the wall, the effect will still be there. For instance a 30cm deep speaker will have a 286Hz first cancellation. Too low of frequency before baffle step make sound directional to the front. Unless you use really shallow speakers, which are probably going to be compromised in a lot of other ways, you won't get good results. I have tried and measured that kind of configuration multiple times.
Corner speakers are also complicated in practice, because you have to work with the room's dimensions (+SBIR as always). And most of the time it won't be ideal with regard to listening position, furniture placement etc.
Thanks abdo123. Rest assured that I'm not saying what I've said above because I'm ignorant of all the issues involved. I'm well aware what those issues are but I'm also aware that those issues can be resolved to some degree. I've built multiple prototypes over the years. The industry isn't interested in such solutions because they can't create a viable business case. The IKEA speaker is an absolute exception but it's also not the level of performance that could be achieved (although Amir liked it a lot).@markus
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From these tests Dr. Toole concluded that anything other than IN-wall and free standing in the middle of the room is not a good idea.
In In-wall installation the sound power becomes the on-axis response in these figures, which means the speaker must be tuned accordingly (no more baffle-step)
the Dutch and Dutch 8C makes it so you don't have the nulls we see in On-wall installation.
P.S. The Dutch & Dutch's or Kii's are certainly great engineering examples but please make no mistake that when you put them in a room you will see SBIR. Simple to test. Get a pair, put them in your room and measure.
Yep, and I didn't deny that, did I? And, I was comparing on/in-wall with cardioid.Not from the front wall. and that's the most problematic wall because it's the closest the source (in this case). There is simply no sound coming from the back of these speakers. this phenomenon is physically impossible.
Anyway i really don't think anything except in-wall and free space is anything remotely Hi-Fi. Just stick the speakers in the center of the room and make them a statement piece. make speaker stands out of solid marble .etc whatever it takes because even a Dutch & Dutch 8C would suffer from an on-wall placement, just less so than traditional speakers.Yep, and I didn't deny that, did I? And, I was comparing on/in-wall with cardioid.
P.S. There IS actually "sound coming from the back of these speakers", that's what makes them work
What you'll perceive in-wall vs. free space (=anechoic) is VERY different.Anyway i really don't think anything except in-wall and free space is anything remotely Hi-Fi. Just stick the speakers in the center of the room and make them a statement piece. make speaker stands out of solid marble .etc whatever it takes because even a Dutch & Dutch 8C would suffer from an on-wall placement, just less so than traditional speakers.
yeah ofcourse, that's why many people like big speakers with big baffles because they're forward firing for a decent chunk of the spectrum (audible benefit). In-wall speakers are forward firing for the entire spectrum, it's just incredibly expensive and irreversible to install them like that which pushes people away.What you'll perceive in-wall vs. free space (=anechoic) is VERY different.
Sorry, you've lost me at "marble stands" On-wall IS an option when done right.yeah ofcourse, that's why many people like big speakers with big baffles because they're forward firing for a decent chunk of the spectrum (audible benefit). In-wall speakers are forward firing for the entire spectrum, it's just incredibly expensive and irreversible to install them like that which pushes people away.
marble stands imported from Italy sounds much more economical and convenient at this point than hiring a contractor to have a hole in your wall and exposing the entire room adjacent to the listening room to exactly whatever you're listening to.
Can you give an example when it's done right? With measurements, I mean.On-wall IS an option when done right.
Here are two examples of speakers designed to be on wall. The depth needed to avoid the issues shown in the Toole extracts limits the design options. There are measurements and simulations in there somewhere.Can you give an example when it's done right? With measurements, I mean.
Diffusion at 200Hz: no. 75 cm for the deepest 1D and 82 cm for the 2D.Is it possible to use absorption or diffusion to tame those dips? Or is 200 Hz too hard to absorp and diffuse? I am thinking how about making normal hard reflective material or absorping material surround the speaker and form an extention of wall that protrude out?
Is it possible to use absorption or diffusion to tame those dips?
Both basic distance and Boundary Element simulations show that the rear radiation is not causing that by itself, there is a small contribution but the bulk comes from the further boundaries.Pretty sure that what's happening in the several hundred Hz region is due to the rear radiation. Pretty decently behaved, though.
As the biggest contributor to the dips do not come from the wall behind then yes they can be absorbed, 200Hz with 6 to 8 inch absorbers and a big enough air gap is doable. The wall behind is better to be reflective with these (at least for some it) to allow the most bass boost from the near wall placement.Is it possible to use absorption or diffusion to tame those dips? Or is 200 Hz too hard to absorp and diffuse? I am thinking how about making normal hard reflective material or absorping material surround the speaker and form an extention of wall that protrude out?
Pretty sure that what's happening in the several hundred Hz region is due to the rear radiation. Pretty decently behaved, though.
Can you give an example when it's done right? With measurements, I mean.
I would guess most people don't have too much space and place the speakers within 1m of the rear wall and some varied distance from the side walls. And try to make it work with EQ, etc.