Genelec 8361A vs 8351B

[Cadguy]

The Genelec chart in question is frequently misinterpreted. What it shows is the critical distance in specific example rooms. The critical distance is indeed where the direct sound is louder than reflections.

However, the critical distance(using the shortcut formula Genelec uses, it's very complex to calculate perfectly) "is affected by the room volume, the room reverberation time, and the directivity of the monitor." (see definition of critical distance at bottom right).

Genelec Ones all have very similar directivity, all that's happening is that they're calculating it for differently sized rooms based on how loud they can play, so in fact there is little if any difference in the speakers' critical distances.

In general, you can assume the narrower a speaker's dispersion, the longer the critical distance can be in any room. But there needs to be quite a significant directivity difference to affect this. Most people's typical 3-4m HiFi listening is NOT within the critical distance, the reverberant sound is dominant.

If at a 4m listening distance the reverberant sound is dominant then what is better at 4 meters, a wide directivity speaker like a Revel Salon or a medium directivity design like the Genelec 8361B plus w371A?

 

[Pearljam5000]

The Genelec chart in question is frequently misinterpreted. What it shows is the critical distance in specific example rooms. The critical distance is indeed where the direct sound is louder than reflections.

However, the critical distance(using the shortcut formula Genelec uses, it's very complex to calculate perfectly) "is affected by the room volume, the room reverberation time, and the directivity of the monitor." (see definition of critical distance at bottom right).

Genelec Ones all have very similar directivity, all that's happening is that they're calculating it for differently sized rooms based on how loud they can play, so in fact there is little if any difference in the speakers' critical distances.

In general, you can assume the narrower a speaker's dispersion, the longer the critical distance can be in any room. But there needs to be quite a significant directivity difference to affect this. Most people's typical 3-4m HiFi listening is NOT within the critical distance, the reverberant sound is dominant.

Let's say I sit 1.5 meters away from an 8361 in room with no treatment at all, will i hear any room interaction and reverberant sound and reflection or just the direct sound?

 

[Sancus]

If at a 4m listening distance the reverberant sound is dominant then what is better at 4 meters, a wide directivity speaker like a Revel Salon or a medium directivity design like the Genelec 8361B plus w371A?

For stereo? Not really possible to answer with certainty. It comes down to preference. There are various posts comparing Ones to Salon 2s around. I think that the W371A gives an additional advantage in <300hz reproduction that no passive speaker can likely match. But some might still prefer the wider dispersion of the Salon 2s, I don't know. It's not really possible to be sure without extensive blind testing among many people and if previous blind tests of high end speakers that measure well are any indication, a majority may pick one but that doesn't mean everybody will.

Let's say I sit 1.5 meters away from an 8361 in room with no treatment at all, will i hear any room interaction and reverberant sound and reflection or just the direct sound?

Yes, you will always hear reflections unless you are literally in an anechoic chamber or a flat outdoor field, and even outdoors you'd still have some floor bounce. Not to mention, bass frequencies don't work like that, we hear the steady state room curve, so sitting closer won't help you with that.

Sitting closer means you will hear less reverberant sound and more direct sound, that's all.

 

[Ambientwks]

I was hinting at this in the 8351b thread but probably better here!

So far, I've had the 61s on loan for a week in my studio, and was also able to listen to the W371+61 / 7370+61 / 7370+51 yesterday. No dice with 51+W371 but we can safely extrapolate I think!

I agree with a lot of the thoughts further up the thread. I will not talk about tonal neutrality because it has been covered well and isn't the most interesting difference to me. Here are my main conclusions (with caveat that I am looking for a setup for mastering and not the living room):

1 - The 'no sub' 51 and 61 both offer slightly different, equally interesting personalities to me. To me, the 61 starts to have the 'relaxed power' presentation of big midfields or mains, while the 51 is a tiny hair less that and more 'standard' midfield in presentation, but a very tiny smidge more detailed. I'm sure this is mainly waveguide, extension, and tiny voicing differences. I think this is generally concurrent with Amir's impressions (all the more impressive for them being in mono!)

2 - Adding in a sub to the 51s really does change the proposition significantly. You can see it in the distortion charts, but hearing the speakers relax for not having to deal with the bass is surprisingly nice. Solid, solid foundation with detail in a way that I've not heard before in smaller monitors or the bulk of sat/sub systems not benefiting from DSP calibration.

2a - Adding a sub to the 61s also does the same thing! This means that with sub support, both of them feel 'bigger' and more relaxed-but-powerful in presentation.

3 - The W371 with anything sounds like a pair of main monitors to me - thinking like PMC MB3 or big gennies/dynaudios or maybe even Augspurgers. Tight, controlled, and 'there' - like sitting in the park rather than looking at the park through a big window. This makes sense because the dispersion is probably similar to a soffited main, and the bass is 100% effortless. Grossly addictive.

With all the above being clear to me after the demos, I still have a pesky issue in choosing which way to go because I'm still attracted to the slightly more relaxed (but still mega detailed) presentation of the 61, but know that the 51+W371 would give me 9/10ths of that with maybe even a smidge more detail. Believe it or not, I just can't justify going to 61+W371, both because they are too big for the rooms I work in and I am at the edge of my budget for now.

As a side note: I was considering the 41+W371 as it's a recommended configuration on the Genelec website. I wouldn't go for it because I felt the smaller mid (and waveguide?) affected the image presentation too much for my taste. I'm sure it 'works' but I wouldn't do it. *However* if I was in a small studio or room, I would not hesitate to listen to the 41 by itself because it still has the family tonality, is super compact and a great deal in my book.

2nd side note: I will be moving from the 8c to a genelec sat/sub combination for my studio work. If I absolutely couldn't have subs, I might consider staying with the 8c for the bass performance, but the 61 without sub gets damn close and arguably has better detail resolution. In turn, the 8c does throw a wonderfully well integrated soundstage that I will miss a little (but will get over it!)

Final side note: You can safely follow Genelec's advice about listening distance. If in doubt, they are great with support and will give you all the help you need.

For me, the nth degree of confidence in bass performance is starting to matter a lot, and that is the main thing that makes all of this difficult (but fun!)

Hope this brain dump is interesting to some of you!

 

[sharock]

Hope this brain dump is interesting to some of you!

Perhaps not the right thread, but I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on the Ones vs the D&D 8c. Not that I can afford either right now, however, one day I'd like to be in a position of choosing between these for my living room (untreated, speakers between TV, listening from sofa 2m away, room EQ).

 

[Pearljam5000]

I was hinting at this in the 8351b thread but probably better here!

So far, I've had the 61s on loan for a week in my studio, and was also able to listen to the W371+61 / 7370+61 / 7370+51 yesterday. No dice with 51+W371 but we can safely extrapolate I think!

I agree with a lot of the thoughts further up the thread. I will not talk about tonal neutrality because it has been covered well and isn't the most interesting difference to me. Here are my main conclusions (with caveat that I am looking for a setup for mastering and not the living room):

1 - The 'no sub' 51 and 61 both offer slightly different, equally interesting personalities to me. To me, the 61 starts to have the 'relaxed power' presentation of big midfields or mains, while the 51 is a tiny hair less that and more 'standard' midfield in presentation, but a very tiny smidge more detailed. I'm sure this is mainly waveguide, extension, and tiny voicing differences. I think this is generally concurrent with Amir's impressions (all the more impressive for them being in mono!)

2 - Adding in a sub to the 51s really does change the proposition significantly. You can see it in the distortion charts, but hearing the speakers relax for not having to deal with the bass is surprisingly nice. Solid, solid foundation with detail in a way that I've not heard before in smaller monitors or the bulk of sat/sub systems not benefiting from DSP calibration.

2a - Adding a sub to the 61s also does the same thing! This means that with sub support, both of them feel 'bigger' and more relaxed-but-powerful in presentation.

3 - The W371 with anything sounds like a pair of main monitors to me - thinking like PMC MB3 or big gennies/dynaudios or maybe even Augspurgers. Tight, controlled, and 'there' - like sitting in the park rather than looking at the park through a big window. This makes sense because the dispersion is probably similar to a soffited main, and the bass is 100% effortless. Grossly addictive.

With all the above being clear to me after the demos, I still have a pesky issue in choosing which way to go because I'm still attracted to the slightly more relaxed (but still mega detailed) presentation of the 61, but know that the 51+W371 would give me 9/10ths of that with maybe even a smidge more detail. Believe it or not, I just can't justify going to 61+W371, both because they are too big for the rooms I work in and I am at the edge of my budget for now.

As a side note: I was considering the 41+W371 as it's a recommended configuration on the Genelec website. I wouldn't go for it because I felt the smaller mid (and waveguide?) affected the image presentation too much for my taste. I'm sure it 'works' but I wouldn't do it. *However* if I was in a small studio or room, I would not hesitate to listen to the 41 by itself because it still has the family tonality, is super compact and a great deal in my book.

2nd side note: I will be moving from the 8c to a genelec sat/sub combination for my studio work. If I absolutely couldn't have subs, I might consider staying with the 8c for the bass performance, but the 61 without sub gets damn close and arguably has better detail resolution. In turn, the 8c does throw a wonderfully well integrated soundstage that I will miss a little (but will get over it!)

Final side note: You can safely follow Genelec's advice about listening distance. If in doubt, they are great with support and will give you all the help you need.

For me, the nth degree of confidence in bass performance is starting to matter a lot, and that is the main thing that makes all of this difficult (but fun!)

Hope this brain dump is interesting to some of you!

Without a sub
would you say the 61 sounded bigger and had a bigger Soundstage than the 51?

 

[Ambientwks]

Perhaps not the right thread, but I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on the Ones vs the D&D 8c. Not that I can afford either right now, however, one day I'd like to be in a position of choosing between these for my living room (untreated, speakers between TV, listening from sofa 2m away, room EQ).

Hi Sharock! Sure, Happy to discuss in whatever amount of detail you like. Full disclosure I'm selling a pair but I hope my post shows that I won't pull any punches. Either DM me or point me to the right thread!

 

[Ambientwks]

Without a sub
would you say the 61 sounded bigger and had a bigger Soundstage than the 51?

Great question. Bigger - yes, Bigger soundstage, yes, for a given listening distance. I think they are both capable of throwing a similar soundstage, but the 61 will do it further away. I feel like we should check the dispersion charts to anchor things, but my sense is always of a slightly bigger speaker with the 61, no sub. This is reinforced by the somewhat 'relaxed' presentation - which imo might just be that tiny dip in the upper mids.

My working distance is 1.5M - so frankly none of that really plays in. I can adjust my 'width' with a smidge of toe-out(?). The manual doesn't talk about it, but it's essentially just widening the dispersion artificially. Always a trade between that and more solid phantom centre.

Hope that makes sense! I haven't eaten lunch yet

 

[sharock]

Hi Sharock! Sure, Happy to discuss in whatever amount of detail you like. Full disclosure I'm selling a pair but I hope my post shows that I won't pull any punches. Either DM me or point me to the right thread!

Thanks, I'll drop you a DM when I get a chance.

Selling a pair of D&Ds and also living in London? Let me just sell a kidney... or two.

 

[Ambientwks]

Thanks, I'll drop you a DM when I get a chance.

Selling a pair of D&Ds and also living in London? Let me just sell a kidney... or two.

I'm on my third set of kidneys (it's a London joke )

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

Added a sub to my setup

 

[flyingbynight]

Added a sub to my setup

Which sub? Which monitors?

 

[flyingbynight]

I was hinting at this in the 8351b thread but probably better here!

So far, I've had the 61s on loan for a week in my studio, and was also able to listen to the W371+61 / 7370+61 / 7370+51 yesterday. No dice with 51+W371 but we can safely extrapolate I think!

I agree with a lot of the thoughts further up the thread. I will not talk about tonal neutrality because it has been covered well and isn't the most interesting difference to me. Here are my main conclusions (with caveat that I am looking for a setup for mastering and not the living room):

1 - The 'no sub' 51 and 61 both offer slightly different, equally interesting personalities to me. To me, the 61 starts to have the 'relaxed power' presentation of big midfields or mains, while the 51 is a tiny hair less that and more 'standard' midfield in presentation, but a very tiny smidge more detailed. I'm sure this is mainly waveguide, extension, and tiny voicing differences. I think this is generally concurrent with Amir's impressions (all the more impressive for them being in mono!)

2 - Adding in a sub to the 51s really does change the proposition significantly. You can see it in the distortion charts, but hearing the speakers relax for not having to deal with the bass is surprisingly nice. Solid, solid foundation with detail in a way that I've not heard before in smaller monitors or the bulk of sat/sub systems not benefiting from DSP calibration.

2a - Adding a sub to the 61s also does the same thing! This means that with sub support, both of them feel 'bigger' and more relaxed-but-powerful in presentation.

3 - The W371 with anything sounds like a pair of main monitors to me - thinking like PMC MB3 or big gennies/dynaudios or maybe even Augspurgers. Tight, controlled, and 'there' - like sitting in the park rather than looking at the park through a big window. This makes sense because the dispersion is probably similar to a soffited main, and the bass is 100% effortless. Grossly addictive.

With all the above being clear to me after the demos, I still have a pesky issue in choosing which way to go because I'm still attracted to the slightly more relaxed (but still mega detailed) presentation of the 61, but know that the 51+W371 would give me 9/10ths of that with maybe even a smidge more detail. Believe it or not, I just can't justify going to 61+W371, both because they are too big for the rooms I work in and I am at the edge of my budget for now.

As a side note: I was considering the 41+W371 as it's a recommended configuration on the Genelec website. I wouldn't go for it because I felt the smaller mid (and waveguide?) affected the image presentation too much for my taste. I'm sure it 'works' but I wouldn't do it. *However* if I was in a small studio or room, I would not hesitate to listen to the 41 by itself because it still has the family tonality, is super compact and a great deal in my book.

2nd side note: I will be moving from the 8c to a genelec sat/sub combination for my studio work. If I absolutely couldn't have subs, I might consider staying with the 8c for the bass performance, but the 61 without sub gets damn close and arguably has better detail resolution. In turn, the 8c does throw a wonderfully well integrated soundstage that I will miss a little (but will get over it!)

Final side note: You can safely follow Genelec's advice about listening distance. If in doubt, they are great with support and will give you all the help you need.

For me, the nth degree of confidence in bass performance is starting to matter a lot, and that is the main thing that makes all of this difficult (but fun!)

Hope this brain dump is interesting to some of you!

Very interesting, thanks!

Did you try a 7360? I like the 8351 / 7370 combo but fitting the 7370 in my room is difficult. Concerned the 7360 would be mismatched in terms of output for the 51s though.

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

Which sub? Which monitors?

8341a and 7360. Room is treated

 

[flyingbynight]

8341a and 7360. Room is treated

Thanks, what SPL levels are you typically listening? Amir mentioned the 8341 not being loud enough, what has been your ecperience? Does running the 7360 raise the output of the 8341s to any noticable degree?

Is the screengrab of the frequency graph above taken from GLM? It would be good to see the whole thing if possible!

Apologies for all the questions, I am considering a similar setup.

 

[1231rq32r1qw32r]

Thanks, what SPL levels are you typically listening? Amir mentioned the 8341 not being loud enough, what has been your ecperience? Does running the 7360 raise the output of the 8341s to any noticable degree?

Is the screengrab of the frequency graph above taken from GLM? It would be good to see the whole thing if possible!

Apologies for all the questions, I am considering a similar setup.

I can’t answer any of these questions with much accuracy in regards to SPL as I don’t measure it.

Adding a sub did not raise the output of the 8341, not noticeably. They go loud enough to be extremely uncomfortable to listen too. I’m also in a 400 year old house and don’t want to damage the walls any further. Even during testing I have not seen the limiter. For near field studio monitors they are “loud enough”.

Frequency response was from GLM. I don’t have any images now, and I don’t have a computer connected to my rig. It was shockingly flat though (in my opinion, of course).

There’s lots of talk about these speakers, which I can’t really understand. The specs Genelec publish are accurate. If the stated SPL doesn’t seem adequate for you, you’ll need something else. I am, however, surprised at the volume some people must endure their music at…

I’ll also add this anecdote: it’s not the volume or the linearity that’s impressive about them - it’s the clarity. You can hear so deep into them. I’ve never heard anything so clean/clear without be at all fatiguing. Also, with GLM, the sub integration is flawless.

 

[Dgob]

[I just realized there are two 8361A vs 8351B threads, so I have moved this post from another thread (of the same title) to this thread (where I had originally intended to post)]

I am now a happy owner of a pair of Genelec 8361A’s, in addition to my Genelec 8351B’s!

And unless plans change, I will likely order a third for a center channel in a month or so, but the third one will likely be taking a quick detour to Amir for testing (unless someone else beats me to it)

Some initial impressions:

• The 8361A are MUCH bigger (and heavier… by about 2x) in-person than I expected. Just seeing them in photos, since all “The Ones” look very similar, it’s hard to get a tangible sense of scale. The 8361A look and feel about twice as big as the 8351’s. I love the size of them, though — just about at the upper limit of what a single average person can carry on their own (using the carry handle straps it is conveniently shipped with attached to the rear mounting bolt sockets).
• Finding stands is a bit more complex than the 8351B. The stand plates that the 8351B iso-pods fit into do not work with the 8361A, since the 8361A iso-pods are much larger. I think the rear mount bolt sockets have the same dimensions on the 8351 and 8361, but this is mostly relevant when wall mounting I think. I don’t think the Genelec 8000-series design stands work with the 8361 (as the 8351 is explicitly mentioned as compatible, but the 8361 is not mentioned), presumably because it would probably not have the right center of gravity even if it was successfully bolted on.
• In terms of sound quality at medium/low levels, I can’t really tell a difference — they sound exactly like the 8351B’s, and that’s a very good thing. If there is a perceptible difference, I probably need a better room to be able to judge (as mine is currently untreated and a bit too lively for my taste).
• Most strikingly, the bass power these are capable of is amazing. Of course they don’t go as deep as my Salon2’s did (nor should they, given cabinet volume differences) but down to 30hz they can effortlessly deliver impact and energy that you can physically feel in your bones and every surface around you. Whether you like loud EDM, or reproducing powerful bass drums in an orchestra, or just explosions in movies — this is a great thing.
• Another practical result of so much bass headroom is I can fearlessly apply a bit more of a deep bass favored tilt (which I prefer), without ever needing to worry about stressing this speaker’s limits.

To paint a picture of how hugely powerful the bass on the 8361’s is, consider this track suggested to me by a friend who really likes EDM music. This track is very bass-heavy. With or without my Genelec subwoofer (crossed at 60hz), I could turn this up to the point that my 8351B’s clipping/limiter light would flash orange, before it was unbearably painfully loud:

In contrast, playing this track via just the pair of 8361A’s alone (and no subwoofer), I am unable to find the 8361’s limit. Meaning, I could turn it up louder and louder to levels beyond anything I’d ever want to experience without earplugs, and I was unable to get the clipping indicator to appear. And never any hint of strain or distortion.

With the 7360 subwoofer enabled along with the 8361’s, the subwoofer starts to give out very quickly (starts clipping) before the 8361 even think about breaking a sweat. Of course this is no big surprise, since this just a 10” ported sub. But I think you’d essentially need something like JTR Captivators or Rythmik FV25HP to produce deep bass matching the midbass dynamics capability of the Genelec 8361A.

If you were just using two of your 8361A's, would you prefer them with or without a single 7360A?

I ask because that is the dilemma that I am currently addressing, and other informed opinions would be welcomed.

 

[stevenswall]

If you were just using two of your 8361A's, would you prefer them with or without a single 7360A?

I ask because that is the dilemma that I am currently addressing, and other informed opinions would be welcomed.

He mentions that the 7360 clips well before the 8361, so I'd say it's a bit useless as a tiny sub for large monitors.

I have a 7271 and it can clip in some instances before the 8260 monitors it is paired with, and the 8361 is even more capable than the 8260.

It should probably be paired with a 7380, especially since most seem to prefer a bit of bass tilt where the lower bass is a few to several dB higher than the mids and treble.

 

[Dgob]

He mentions that the 7360 clips well before the 8361, so I'd say it's a bit useless as a tiny sub for large monitors.

I have a 7271 and it can clip in some instances before the 8260 monitors it is paired with, and the 8361 is even more capable than the 8260.

It should probably be paired with a 7380, especially since most seem to prefer a bit of bass tilt where the lower bass is a few to several dB higher than the mids and treble.

I rarely go over 85dB average SPL. And, although the higher peaks will exceed my 85dB average at several moments in a piece of music, clipping has not proved an issue. Still experimenting though!

 

[stevenswall]

I rarely go over 85dB average SPL. And, although the higher peaks will exceed my 85dB average at several moments in a piece of music, clipping has not proved an issue. Still experimenting though!

That's good it hasn't impacted you. Do you use the sound profiler with GLM? I use that to provide some bass tilt.

Let's say you're playing a movie or music averaging 85dB. This doesn't cause issue, because it's the peaks that will cause distortion.

+15dB will handle the peaks, as most music seems to be around there according to the dynamic range database.

+10 dB for bass tilt, which is what most speakers seem to do if you extended the line to 20hz and what many prefer.

If the 7360 can do 110dB peaks at 20hz, perhaps it's fine. Might struggle in a larger room just comparing it to the 7271 that claims 123dB peaks instead of 114dB peaks. The protection light came on sometimes when people turned things up. Less so now as I've put limits on it and the speakers.