HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

[chi2]

I asked it who is NWAVGUY. It said this:

"NwAvGuy, short for "New Audio/Video Guy," was the online pseudonym of a person known for his contributions to the audio community, particularly in the realm of headphone amplifiers and digital-to-analog converters (DACs). His real identity is Charles Hansen, an audio engineer."

When asking ChatGPT 3.5 about the identity of NwAvGuy it gives the following answer which seems pretty spot-on to me (2023/12/26):

"The true identity of NwAvGuy remains undisclosed, and he chose to remain anonymous during his online presence. The focus was on the ideas and designs rather than personal recognition."

 

[Coverpage]

Are you serious? How many times have I explained what I do? Once more, I measure. That is the cornerstone of my review. Those measurements show major deficiencies in both tonality and distortion. It also massively clips at 115 dBSPL where hardly any headphone does. I listen and verify that those deficiencies are indeed there. It is this totality of information that tells me it is not a good headphone and certainly misses the mark at what it sells for.

Compare that to other reviewers who spend pages talking about a headphone with measurements either absent or afterthought. You can read them 10 times and still not know exactly what they are saying about the performance of the headphone. And even if you did, you read the next review and that will set you right back to confusion.

My reviews have structure, focus, goals and objectives. This is why folks are up in arms about them. The message comes out very clearly and crisply if a headphone is not performant.

I have answered multiple times why the measurements are not sufficient to predict if a headphone sounds good, and more importantly there’s no clear goal to what measurements are suppose to achieve.

I have conversed as objectively and scientifically as possible on the limitations of your measurement.

But that does not stop the general consensus that bad headphones (based on mainly on FR curve and THD) is worst that better measuring headphones.

It seems ASR can be unscientific.

 

[amirm]

It's tonality is not bad. It is actually good according to Harman reasearch. Its deviation is less than 2dB from target and it has a treble tilt, but overall it performs in the same ballpark as Stealth or HD650, your 2 go to headphones.

What on earth you talking about? This is Stealth:

This is Susvara:

You think these two are in the ballpark??? Response at 20 Hz is lacking by about 7 dB. Where the heck do you get "2 dB" from?

These are my EQ corrections:

You see those 6 dB filters?

HD650 misses on bass but nails it above that:

HD650 is almost distortion-less even at 114 dBSPL above bass:

It shows no clear resonances like Susvara does:

And it is not just level of distortion but their shapes. Above clearly indicates unwanted resonances. This is a classic design problem that needed to be dealt with and was not.

Again, look at Stealth Distortion:

It simply doesn't have distortion above 200 Hz.

Really, you have lost the plot here, constantly posting things that make no sense.

 

[amirm]

I have answered multiple times why the measurements are not sufficient to predict if a headphone sounds good, and more importantly there’s no clear goal to what measurements are suppose to achieve.

If you have, then you are wrong. Not only research shows this conclusively, but my own listening tests have as well across large body of headphones and IEMs.

 

[OnLyTNT]

Susvara's FR looks like random IR filter applied. I don't think it's something intended.

 

[amirm]

It seems ASR can be unscientific.

Only to people who don't really understand (or even bother to read) the research and lack personal experience correlating measurements with listening tests.

 

[Coverpage]

If you have, then you are wrong. Not only research shows this conclusively, but my own listening tests have as well across large body of headphones and IEMs.

Just a small abstract of my point:

If we base our headphone purchase solely on these measurements, the Susvara loses out to IEMs that may be 10s of dollars.

Assuming the goal of your measurement is to deduce how well a headphone sounds, then the above statement must be true.

We can verify this through a survey. But anyone who has heard the IEM and a Susvara knows that, putting price aside, the Susvara is perceived to be better sounding.


So either the goal is not clear, or the methodology is not good enough.

 

[amirm]

Stax SR-009S does, according to you. In that review you said "I did have to back off to 110 dBSPL as anything above that caused severe distortion". A headphone you found out to be a wonderful headphone and highly recommended for low to medium level listening. Why exactly distortion at 115dB SPL is a no go for this headphone, objectively?

Because of this:

See any distortion at up to 110 dBSPL above 600 Hz? You don't. Yes, it also has a hard limiting but up to that point its level of distortion is similar to audio electronics. No way can you compare it to Susvara with its clear distortion spikes.

And keep in mind that Stax did NOT get a better review score without EQ:

Postman panther is the same rating. But add some EQ to it and stay below its hard ceiling and the Stax puts a smile on your face.

 

[caught gesture]

We can verify this through a survey. But anyone who has heard the IEM and a Susvara knows that, putting price aside, the Susvara is perceived to be better sounding.

Doesn’t your survey suffer from the influence of the price in the form of bias? You want to push the bias aside in your survey, ignore its influence on the listening experience.

 

[Coverpage]

Doesn’t your survey suffer from the influence of the price in the form of bias? You want to push the bias aside in your survey, ignore its influence on the listening experience.

Just people not in the headphone community. There are many, even audiophiles, who are into speakers and do not know headphones.

But if you've heard the two, you'll know, at least in my opinion, it's not even close.

 

[caught gesture]

Just people not in the headphone community. There are many, even audiophiles, who are into speakers and do not know headphones.

But if you've heard the two, you'll know, at least in my opinion, it's not even close.

So you are imagining an outcome that will fit your viewpoint.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

@IAtaman

 

[the_brunx]

the emotional reactions to objective data always amazes me. It’s like some people would rather not know the truth. LOL

And move on.

 

[Coverpage]

So you are imagining an outcome that will fit your viewpoint.

Not really. If the argument is truly,

"Yes the 20-30 dollars IEM sound better than the Susvara deduced from these measurements."

Then it's up to each individual in the community to judge if the measurement is reliable until a survey/study is done.

But we need to hear that this is truly the goal of the measurement. It could also be:

"No the measurement does not tell you one headphone is better than the other, that is still primarily up to subjective listening."

In this case, less emphasis will be put on the measurement, and rightfully so, due to the clearly defined goal.

 

[amirm]

If we base our headphone purchase solely on these measurements, the Susvara loses out to IEMs that may be 10s of dollars.

Assuming the goal of your measurement is to deduce how well a headphone sounds, then the above statement must be true.

We can verify this through a survey. But anyone who has heard the IEM and a Susvara knows that, putting price aside, the Susvara is perceived to be better sounding.

I don't know who those people are. It takes a lot of guts for subjectivists to swallow that pill based on price and status alone. Fortunately at ASR we are not that. Read the comments and see the incredible praise Zero:2 is getting at $20: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/7hz-x-crinacle-zero-2-iem-review.50534/

"I've got these and new daily drivers replacing the Simgot EA500 which are nice, but these really are terrific. "

"First IEM for me in a looooong time, more than 15 years since my last IEM. Very impressive indeed!"

"Still, for those that eke more towards this sound signature the Zero 2 is an obvious winner. Can’t believe the performance we’re seeing for practically pocket money these days."

"After just one day of listening, I have to say the sound quality, noise insolation, and comfort is insanely good. I am buying a few more for all my family. maybe also for my neighbors, gardener, and cleaner, etc."

"I received my set today and they sound GREAT! Very happy with them so far. "

"Just got my Zero 2's in and they're very, very awesome. The only thing that makes me sad is that they sound just as good, if not actually better than my Sennheiser IE600's that were like 24x the price of these."

There are even more praise for the original Zero: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/7hz-salnotes-zero-iem-review.50226/

"The final and irrefutable confirmation for us loving this iem, and while we all may already know the FR, distortion measurement is astonishing.
Adding the ultra affordable price, here it is something all music and hifi lover can rejoice for."

"Honestly, I rarely listen to my Senn HD800 any more. I love the truthear reds."

"All of them are great and I know I will need to go north of some good US $10000 in loudspeaker monitors to match their performance."

"Unbelievable performance for the money. It’s killing me to know that I’ve spent gobs of green on my system, only to find it can be blown away for what amounts to beer money."

On and on. If IEMs physical characteristics don't bother you, the ones I have recommended blow away many speakers and headphones.

 

[Soria Moria]

Not really. If the argument is truly,

"Yes the 20-30 dollars IEM sound better than the Susvara deduced from these measurements."

Then it's up to each individual in the community to judge if the measurement is reliable until a survey/study is done.

But we need to hear that this is truly the goal of the measurement. It could also be:

"No the measurement does not tell you one headphone is better than the other, that is still primarily up to subjective listening."

In this case, less emphasis will be put on the measurement, and rightfully so, due to the clearly defined goal.

Why is it so hard to imagine that a $20 IEM (and which one?) can sound better than the Susvara? Would it be less crazy to you if the IEM were $500?

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

It takes a lot of guts for subjectivists to swallow that pill based on price and status alone.

The ultimate truth about audio industry.
I'm one of the living proofs of that.

 

[Coverpage]

I don't know who those people are. It takes a lot of guts for subjectivists to swallow that pill based on price and status alone. Fortunately at ASR we are not that. Read the comments and see the incredible praise Zero:2 is getting at $20: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/7hz-x-crinacle-zero-2-iem-review.50534/

"I've got these and new daily drivers replacing the Simgot EA500 which are nice, but these really are terrific. "

"First IEM for me in a looooong time, more than 15 years since my last IEM. Very impressive indeed!"

"Still, for those that eke more towards this sound signature the Zero 2 is an obvious winner. Can’t believe the performance we’re seeing for practically pocket money these days."

"After just one day of listening, I have to say the sound quality, noise insolation, and comfort is insanely good. I am buying a few more for all my family. maybe also for my neighbors, gardener, and cleaner, etc."

"I received my set today and they sound GREAT! Very happy with them so far. "

"Just got my Zero 2's in and they're very, very awesome. The only thing that makes me sad is that they sound just as good, if not actually better than my Sennheiser IE600's that were like 24x the price of these."

There are even more praise for the original Zero: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/7hz-salnotes-zero-iem-review.50226/

"The final and irrefutable confirmation for us loving this iem, and while we all may already know the FR, distortion measurement is astonishing.
Adding the ultra affordable price, here it is something all music and hifi lover can rejoice for."

"Honestly, I rarely listen to my Senn HD800 any more. I love the truthear reds."

"All of them are great and I know I will need to go north of some good US $10000 in loudspeaker monitors to match their performance."

"Unbelievable performance for the money. It’s killing me to know that I’ve spent gobs of green on my system, only to find it can be blown away for what amounts to beer money."

On and on. If IEMs physical characteristics don't bother you, the ones I have recommended blow away many speakers and headphones.

Okay, I'm glad you made the goal clear.

So indeed, the measurement is supposed to define the better headphones, and the IEM sounds better than the Susvara.

I appreciate the directness of the reply. I honestly disagree that Susvara sounds worse than Zero 2, and I honestly feel that most people who listen to the two will pick Susvara if they are oblivious to the price.

The reason is that the transient response (at least perceived to me) makes it sound more "real." When you listen to jazz or acoustic tracks, the percussive sounds sound more impactful and realistic.

I studied a bit of motor design in the past, and the speed of motors is real. So although the impulse response should be seen in the FR curve, especially at the treble, it's not true for headphones because the system is more complicated than a simple motor (which in itself can be a bit non-linear as well).

So you still see the treble, but that doesn't mean it has a fast impulse response.

To make it quick, you can either have a light diaphragm, strong magnets, or both. Headphones has the advantage of being able to fit more magnets in a larger space. Planars are basically linear (rather than rotary) motors, and it allows them to do this very quick response with a linear force constant vs. a voicecoil in dynamic drivers that has a non-linear force constant by design.

So these are the things that should give us the "detail" of the recordings, and should be visible in FR plots if the system is simpler and LTI.

But we see many headphones with alot of treble but do not have detail, a give away that the system is not LTI and FR curve is not sufficient.

Anyway I appreciate your response and agree to disagree on this one.

 

[caught gesture]

Then it's up to each individual in the community to judge if the measurement is reliable until a survey/study is done.

How is this to be achieved? Each member has to invest in expensive testing equipment and then learn how to operate it? You start.

 

[Chagall]

I don't know who those people are. It takes a lot of guts for subjectivists to swallow that pill based on price and status alone. Fortunately at ASR we are not that. Read the comments and see the incredible praise Zero:2 is getting at $20: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/7hz-x-crinacle-zero-2-iem-review.50534/

"Honestly, I rarely listen to my Senn HD800 any more. I love the truthear reds."

I'll buy Zero's to hear for myself. If it turns out to be true I'll be the first one to acknowledge it and admit I was mistaken.

Why is it so hard to imagine that a $20 IEM (and which one?) can sound better than the Susvara? Would it be less crazy to you if the IEM were $500?

I find it unlikely because of this.

Edit: Both can be right—people who prefer IEM and people who prefer HD800s or Susvara.