HIFIMAN Susvara Headphone Review

[Soria Moria]

I have a very elementary understanding of this stuff but if everything that can be captured, played back and heard is in the frequency range, then any headphone that can reproduce the entire audible frequency range should be able to resolve everything audible, right? So I don't understand the 'resolving driver' stuff outside of something like distortion and having a balanced tuning.

 

[majingotan]

Based on what I’ve been reading here lately, I think some people have been confused with clarity = detail that is rampant throughout audiophool forums.

Clarity is dependent on FR and understanding stock FR of Susvara against a $20 SOTA IEM, one can perceive more clarity with Susvara because the upper mid and lower treble is more emphasized than that of the Harman Curve relative to bass response. This flatter bass without the elevation on the midbass to subbass makes the listener focus on the upper mids and treble and thus get a higher perceived clarity and then equate that to detail. However, BOTH $€£ 20 SOTA IEM and Susvara reproduce all of the details but Susvara makes a listener perceive higher clarity solely because of its stock FR. If one brain-burn in on the Harman Curve from the €£$ 20 IEM or any DCA headphone (E3, Expanse, Stealth) and listen to Susvara, they’ll quickly notice that all the details are the same but the clarity is different on both

 

[Sebby]

I read earlier that the designer of these headphones wanted a particular aural effect and I suspect the resonances and response aberrations are DELIBERATE in achieving this. This isn't uncommon in subjectivist circles (added midrange resonances in a couple of tonearms to make vinyl sound more 'exciting' and an amplifier circuit that hugely limits power bandwidth over a few kHz, the audible result being a 'dulled' subjective quality rather than a hard or harsh ringing sound if pushed too hard).

Many older male audiophiles lack tolerance of intense lower kHz sounds, so why not reduce that area to make the sound more attractive to such aged ears, while adding resonances here and there can make for a more 'vivid' kind of sonic quality if artfully done. The designer suggesting a kind of 'concert hall' result (when many orchestras are recorded and mixed close-up I believe these days) reminds me of the Bose 901 kind of thing, where a similar presentation was designed in if a suitable wall or corner was there nearby. Due to age related hearing losses which we ALL suffer from to a degree, would mean that huge volumes (which caused the cracking up in the review set), may never be an issue (I definitely can't tolerate high volumes now, which is a far cry from my hooligan days half my life ago when the neighbours were out and UP went the volume ).

This kind of shows me anyway, the dangers of designing for a 'nice tone' rather than truth to the incoming audio signal good or bad. As for the cost, it is part of the story and 'desirability' I feel as well as a good money spinner for the makers.

But it is obvious that the Susvara is the result of thoughtful choices and not bad engineering and is aimed at a certain niche that loves certain things. Anyone who thinks it's bad engineering should return their degree or take an IQ test.
The only thing we are sure of from the measurements is that the headphones do not reproduce the track with perfect fidelity (not even Harman FR headphones do this) but it is coloured. What's wrong?
Costs too much? In my opinion, yes, but the driver inside costs a lot, whether you like it or not, and the low number of specimens expected for this model causes the price list to rise.
Even an IEM like the Final A8000 has a list cost of €2000, but at the time of its release its 6mm Beryllium driver (not plated, but built entirely in Beryllium) cost €300 if purchased directly from the manufacturing company. Is it the best IEM in the world? But not by a long shot and for me the A3000 which costs 20 times less is better, but their goal was a certain signature and they achieved it.
The Final B2 was measured on ASR and I think it is one of the most beautiful IEMs ever made in the last 20 years, but to my ears it sounded strange and the measurements confirmed what I heard. The engineer who designed the B2 was asked why those design choices were made and the response was "we are perfectly aware of what it sounds like; we designed it. Our goal was to achieve exactly that sound because there is a niche of customers who love that sound, period."
I also laugh when I hear Susvara owners talk about better cables and tube amplifiers to enhance the Susvara, but that's another problem. In the end the question is always the same: objectivism and subjectivism are two religions followed by emotional people full of bias. The only sane thing to do is to look at Amir's measurements and understand whether certain results can lead to advantages or disadvantages. You do NOT need to look at Amir's personal preferences and you do not need to look at user comments. There are 2 or 3 users that are worth listening to; the rest of the users are the mirror effect of Head-HiFi users.

 

[plumpudding2]

I'm not talking about FR.
How adding resonances is natural?
Headphones are not instrument, they are to REPRODUCE sound (recording) not produce.
You are confusing two things.

Every piece of audio equipment should add least to the sound thats a fact. That's why it is called HIFI.

If somebody likes resonances in their music - that's fine, but that call it hifi then.

ps. I did heard distortion/resonances or something other that was wrong with susvara, and it was not na 114db.

I'd say your statement is very true for studio users / sound engineers but not consumer audio.

You can also argue about the fidelity part (I'll concede it's nitpicking) but if a performance in a concert hall was close mic'ed your experience in the hall would include the resonances and reverb while the recording would sound much drier.

Artificially adding these back through the transducer would make the sound high fidelity as it would be closer to the live experience. However a headphone designed to add in "lost" reverb will fall short on recordings that don't call for it making it a niche choice. The legendary Sony mdr-r10 also went for this effect (while measuring like crap).

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

I'd say your statement is very true for studio users / sound engineers but not consumer audio.

You can also argue about the fidelity part (I'll concede it's nitpicking) but if a performance in a concert hall was close mic'ed your experience in the hall would include the resonances and reverb while the recording would sound much drier.

Artificially adding these back through the transducer would make the sound high fidelity as it would be closer to the live experience. However a headphone designed to add in "lost" reverb will fall short on recordings that don't call for it making it a niche choice. The legendary Sony mdr-r10 also went for this effect (while measuring like crap).

Ok imagine that. What if recording has concert hall reverberation embedded (which most good classical recording have). What happens if you add another one from headphone?
You are no longer listening to the venue.... where is the truth?

Another extreme imagine electronic music that sometimes can be very dry sounding without reverb/echo added. What happens then?
You are not listening to what is recorded.
It's everything but hifi.

Another point, you can never recreate original music that was happening during recording. You are only recreating RECORDING not actual music not actual experience as you would be there.
If you want to that with lofi - be my guest go ahead. The point is then the headphone and its flaws are stamping signature on everything and the signature is always the same.

 

[Hifihedgehog]

$6000 headphones bested by $22 IEMs. Classic. This is what ASR is all about. Thank you, @amirm!

“Welcome to ASR. Amir saved your wallet.”

 

[Rhamnetin]

But it is obvious that the Susvara is the result of thoughtful choices and not bad engineering and is aimed at a certain niche that loves certain things. Anyone who thinks it's bad engineering should return their degree or take an IQ test.

While this is far from the worst measurement in the world, this could certainly be attributed to bad engineering especially for the price.

but their goal was a certain signature and they achieved it.

And for the Susvara, no such goals are conveyed in any product literature.

 

[plumpudding2]

Ok imagine that. What if recording has concert hall reverberation embedded (which most good classical recording have). What happens if you add another one from headphone?
You are no longer listening to the venue.... where is the truth?

Another extreme imagine electronic music that sometimes can be very dry sounding without reverb/echo added. What happens then?
You are not listening to what is recorded.
It's everything but hifi.

Another point, you can never recreate original music that was happening during recording. You are only recreating RECORDING not actual music not actual experience as you would be there.
If you want to that with lofi - be my guest go ahead. The point is then the headphone and its flaws are stamping signature on everything and the signature is always the same.

We completely agree! I just wanted to explain the crowd here, which seems dumbfounded by this headphone's popularity that, to the Headfi crowd that buys this headphone, the sound is perceived as more hifi for above-mentioned reasons.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

We completely agree! I just wanted to explain the crowd here, which seems dumbfounded by this headphone's popularity that, to the Headfi crowd that buys this headphone, the sound is perceived as more hifi for above-mentioned reasons.

Fine.

To be fair, these are not bad sounding headphones but also nothing to rave about. Definitely not worth 6k or 3,5k as they can be bought now from hifiman.

The funniest part is the hype that is all around it, repeated by just everyone in the industry.
"Detail master" - lol

 

[Sebby]

While this is far from the worst measurement in the world, this could certainly be attributed to bad engineering especially for the price.

This is your BIAS. Did you ask who designed the headphones?
And then enough with the "...for its price" thing! Price is not directly related to sound quality in the strict sense of the word. It is linked to development costs, driver production costs, aesthetic finishes and customer target.
The Zero 2 uses a cheap shell, a driver produced by an external company and which is used on many other products and has been tuned to a brand appreciated by most users.
Summary: Low production costs and more copies sold in a week than Susvara has sold in years.

 

[the_brunx]

We completely agree! I just wanted to explain the crowd here, which seems dumbfounded by this headphone's popularity that, to the Headfi crowd that buys this headphone, the sound is perceived as more hifi for above-mentioned reasons.

This crowd has rewarded bad audio engineering and demotivated true technical progress for years. Because they will call down, up and wet, dry etc and get the bias snowball rolling and defend it that way, why? Who knows. How much sponsoring goes on, who knows, how much gifts reviewers enjoy. Who knows

 

[Sebby]

And for the Susvara, no such goals are conveyed in any product literature.

I totally agree with this, but I don't think I've ever seen a product consistent with its description, in any field.
What I am saying however does not exclude the emotional factor, the price which psychologically makes you appreciate a product more because it makes it exclusive... in the end Marketing always wins over science and you need it to sell.
I'm just saying that one thing doesn't exclude the other and nothing should be taken for granted. If you want to know how things are, the last thing to do after the measurements is to consult the engineer and ask for explanations. Then it's up to you to trust what he tells you or not and no one is forcing you to buy.
I also would never spend that amount of money on those headphones and I have had the chance to listen to them and in any case I prefer the HE400se (which I subsequently purchased), but before giving a final judgment we should dig deeper into things.

 

[Coverpage]

I have a very elementary understanding of this stuff but if everything that can be captured, played back and heard is in the frequency range, then any headphone that can reproduce the entire audible frequency range should be able to resolve everything audible, right? So I don't understand the 'resolving driver' stuff outside of something like distortion and having a balanced tuning.

The difficulty is that the input, which is the perfect signal from the audio source, may not be perfectly reproduced as soundwaves when it reaches our ears.

This document is for speakers, but it should mostly apply to headphones too: https://www.rmsacoustics.nl/papers/whitepaperdistortion.pdf

I extracted some key points:

Non-linearities in Dynamic Headphones​

Driver Mechanics:

• The driver, consisting of a voice coil, is fundamental in this process. It extends outward with a positive voltage and retracts with a negative one. However, the force constant (the amount of force produced by the voice coil for a given current) isn't consistent throughout its entire movement range. Ideally, this force should be linear, meaning it remains constant regardless of the coil’s position in its stroke. But in reality, this isn't the case, leading to non-linearity and, consequently, distortion where the frequency reproduction won't be perfect.
• Additionally, the reluctance force, stemming from the induced current due to the changing magnetic field, can either oppose or aid the voice coil's motion. This variability further contributes to non-linearities.

Diaphragm Dynamics:

• The diaphragm, vibrated by the voice coil, is supposed to convert oscillations into sound waves accurately, preserving all frequency components of the signal. However, the diaphragm has its own natural frequencies, known as' modes'. Each mode represents a distinct pattern of vibration, affecting how the diaphragm responds to different parts of the audio spectrum.
• So it may not have trouble producing a single frequency, but it can have difficulties producing multiple frequencies, contributing to intermodulation distortion.
• Designing these modes is crucial since the diaphragm’s response varies with each mode, potentially leading to certain frequencies being inaccurately reproduced.
• Check out the modes in the pdf.
  
  
  

There's more but I'm not familiar
There's should be a model for acoustics and vibration of the entire headphones. I'm not familiar with the mathematics around that.



As you can imagine, the model will be different when going to electrostatics, as the components are different. And it will be both similar while still being quite different for planars (these use linear motors).

That's why the idea that all the signals from the source music will be reproduced perfectly as soundwaves is likely not true. Loss of information can occur in these phenomena. There's probably more.

 

[fredristair]

Dear Susvara thread participants,

I'm writing this with a heavy heart, a heart that feels like it's been shattered into a thousand noisy fragments. You see, I am an owner of Susvara headphones. They were supposed to be my audio sanctuary, my refuge into a world of unparalleled sound. But life had other plans. In my heart of hearts in reading through ASR I suspected that I had succumbed to a mass delusion, so I resolved myself to get a set of IEMs in comparison.

Enter the TRUTHEAR x Crinacle Zero IEMs, a mere $50 punch to the gut. I never thought something so budget-friendly could dismantle my audio beliefs. Yet, here I am, utterly devastated to admit that these affordable IEMs sound better than my 6K Susvaras.

It's not about the money – it's about the brutal truth that a superior distortion profile and frequency response trumps a hefty price tag. My cherished belief in the dimensions of sound, the layers, and the complexity – it all crumbled like a delicate melody fading away.

The bitter lesson here is that the primacy of frequency response reigns supreme. The other dimensions I thought I heard were perhaps illusions, a mirage created by the allure of high-end gear.

But in the midst of this audio heartbreak, there's a glimmer of hope. ASR (Audio Science Review) is now my guiding light. Objective measurements and the pursuit of audio truth has opened my eyes. It's time to rebuild, to embrace the reality that accurate sound isn't confined to price tags or perceptions.

So here's to the future, where the pursuit of true audio excellence transcends illusions and welcomes a new era of honest, measured sound. You can find my Susvara up for sale. I’ll be taking a 1200$ loss at them for what I paid new (4500$), but it is a small price to pay for enlightenment.

Chastened but grateful, I have an E3 on order at 10% discount.

Fred

 

[Sebby]

Dear Susvara thread participants,

I'm writing this with a heavy heart, a heart that feels like it's been shattered into a thousand noisy fragments. You see, I am an owner of Susvara headphones. They were supposed to be my audio sanctuary, my refuge into a world of unparalleled sound. But life had other plans. In my heart of hearts in reading through ASR I suspected that I had succumbed to a mass delusion, so I resolved myself to get a set of IEMs in comparison.

Enter the TRUTHEAR x Crinacle Zero IEMs, a mere $50 punch to the gut. I never thought something so budget-friendly could dismantle my audio beliefs. Yet, here I am, utterly devastated to admit that these affordable IEMs sound better than my 6K Susvaras.

It's not about the money – it's about the brutal truth that a superior distortion profile and frequency response trumps a hefty price tag. My cherished belief in the dimensions of sound, the layers, and the complexity – it all crumbled like a delicate melody fading away.

The bitter lesson here is that the primacy of frequency response reigns supreme. The other dimensions I thought I heard were perhaps illusions, a mirage created by the allure of high-end gear.

But in the midst of this audio heartbreak, there's a glimmer of hope. ASR (Audio Science Review) is now my guiding light. Objective measurements and the pursuit of audio truth has opened my eyes. It's time to rebuild, to embrace the reality that accurate sound isn't confined to price tags or perceptions.

So here's to the future, where the pursuit of true audio excellence transcends illusions and welcomes a new era of honest, measured sound. You can find my Susvara up for sale. I’ll be taking a 1200$ loss at them for what I paid new (4500$), but it is a small price to pay for enlightenment.

Chastened but grateful, I have an E3 on order at 10% discount.

Fred

What I'm wondering is how is this possible? That is, Zero Red is an IEM with average performance and very good objects have existed for several years.
BlonBL01 costs less than €20 and has a FABULOUS tone! It also has really low distortion (I remember it being measured and I'll work hard to find the data. It's been a long time). It has a slightly warmer midrange but has more air. For me it's better than Zero Red and it costs 1/3. From what I know it came out several years ago.
Mine is not a reproach or anything, I would never dare, but it's just personal curiosity. Before coming to Susvara, have you ever before tried items that are also hugely successful (e.g. Blon, Final Audio, 7HZ etc...) before trying expensive upgrades?
For example, the Final E3000 was so successful that it was released in 2017 and continues to sell thousands of units...

 

[fredristair]

Take the red pill.

 

[Chagall]

Other term that bewilders me is PRaT

I don't know what PRaT is, but these headphones have it

 

[the_brunx]

Take the red pill.

Tests are freely repeatable.

 

[Sebby]

Take the red pill.

Right now I'm listening to music with my Zero 2; I don't need any pills.
My question was another but perhaps I was unclear...

 

[plumpudding2]

Dear Susvara thread participants,

I'm writing this with a heavy heart, a heart that feels like it's been shattered into a thousand noisy fragments. You see, I am an owner of Susvara headphones. They were supposed to be my audio sanctuary, my refuge into a world of unparalleled sound. But life had other plans. In my heart of hearts in reading through ASR I suspected that I had succumbed to a mass delusion, so I resolved myself to get a set of IEMs in comparison.

Enter the TRUTHEAR x Crinacle Zero IEMs, a mere $50 punch to the gut. I never thought something so budget-friendly could dismantle my audio beliefs. Yet, here I am, utterly devastated to admit that these affordable IEMs sound better than my 6K Susvaras.

It's not about the money – it's about the brutal truth that a superior distortion profile and frequency response trumps a hefty price tag. My cherished belief in the dimensions of sound, the layers, and the complexity – it all crumbled like a delicate melody fading away.

The bitter lesson here is that the primacy of frequency response reigns supreme. The other dimensions I thought I heard were perhaps illusions, a mirage created by the allure of high-end gear.

But in the midst of this audio heartbreak, there's a glimmer of hope. ASR (Audio Science Review) is now my guiding light. Objective measurements and the pursuit of audio truth has opened my eyes. It's time to rebuild, to embrace the reality that accurate sound isn't confined to price tags or perceptions.

So here's to the future, where the pursuit of true audio excellence transcends illusions and welcomes a new era of honest, measured sound. You can find my Susvara up for sale. I’ll be taking a 1200$ loss at them for what I paid new (4500$), but it is a small price to pay for enlightenment.

Chastened but grateful, I have an E3 on order at 10% discount.

Fred

If you want to troll ASR I'd advise you to lay it on a little less thick next time.