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How loud is loud, how to measure it? Is THX calibration bad for your health?

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sarumbear

sarumbear

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Actually, you are incorrect. Any theater that buys an Atmos decoder and sets up the speaker in the proper places can play Atmos. Dolby Cinemas are the only theaters certified by Dolby. Dolby does NOT certify non-Dolby branded theaters.

And also let's clear up your misunderstanding of the Dolby suit. Dolby's suit had nothing to do with Atmos, it had to do with patent licensing violations attributed to their video server technology, not their audio products.
I am afraid I know the court case results first hand. Your disagreement is not going to change that fact. A small UK cinema chain was forced to pay Dolby and got certified in order to display Dolby Atmos logo on their marketing and on the entrance to their theatres.

If you are a Dolby representative, message me privately and I will pass the particulars of the case. Otherwise, saying no on repeat will be pretty meaningless.
 

Soundmixer

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It does in UK. I know it for a fact.
Dolby does not have one requirement for one region and another for a different one. Atmos certification is one thing, Dolby Cinema certification is another. The two are not the same, and you need to understand that.

Atmos certification= decoder and audio processing are present, and speakers are in the right place for accurate playback of Atmos content. Dolby Cinema means Dolby controls ALL ASPECTS of the cinema experience including constant monitoring for the audio and video system AS A REQUIREMENT. Dolby has no idea what levels the former theaters are playback levels are, they can't monitor them day to day unless the theater pays for that service. Dolby monitors every aspect of a Dolby Cinema (and can do so in real-time) including yearly checks for compliance. It does not do that for Atmos-certified theaters.

With Atmos certification, you are paying for marketing the technology using their trademark. You could still playback Atmos without using the marketing trademark by just calling it Immersive Audio. With Dolby Cinema, you cannot do that - Dolby controls that whole pie.
 
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sarumbear

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Dolby does not have one requirement for one region and another for a different one. Atmos certification is one thing, Dolby Cinema certification is another. The two are not the same, and you need to understand that.

Atmos certification= decoder and audio processing are present, and speakers are in the right place for accurate playback of Atmos content. Dolby Cinema means Dolby controls ALL ASPECTS of the cinema experience including constant monitoring for the audio and video system AS A REQUIREMENT. Dolby has no idea what levels the former theaters are playback levels are, they can't monitor them day to day unless the theater pays for that service. Dolby monitors every aspect of a Dolby Cinema (and can do so in real-time) including yearly checks for compliance. It does not do that for Atmos-certified theaters.
You keep repeating yourself but seemingly not reading what I wrote. That’s not a normal behaviour.

I clearly said Dolby Atmos Logo, multiple times! Why are you still talking about Dolby Cinema and confusing the issue?
 

abdo123

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You keep repeating yourself but seemingly not reading what I wrote. That’s not a normal behaviour.

I clearly said Dolby Atmos Logo, multiple times! Why are you still talking about Dolby Cinema and confusing the issue?
What i think he’s saying is that there are two certifications. ‘Dolby Atmos’ is for the digital content, the proprietary format, and the ability to decode it. And ‘Dolby Cinema’ is for the entire experience itself.

The company used ‘Dolby Atmos’ for the entire experience instead of the particular content which is basically abusing the Dolby name for monetary gain.
 
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sarumbear

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What i think he’s saying is that there are two certifications. ‘Dolby Atmos’ is for the digital content, the proprietary format, and the ability to decode it. And ‘Dolby Cinema’ is for the entire experience itself.

The company used ‘Dolby Atmos’ for the entire experience instead of the particular content which is basically abusing the Dolby name for monetary gain.
I know what a Dolby Cinema is. It was introduced in 2015. The case I was involved was before then.

If you read my posts you will understand that Dolby took a UK cinema chain and won. Cinema chain had to pay to be certified in order to display the Dolby Atmos logo on their cinema and marketing. Explain how this happened if posters on this thread are correct.

Whether Dolby are abusing their power for monetary gain or not is neither here nor there. Shall we discuss Apple’s App Store commission next?
 

Soundmixer

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You keep repeating yourself but seemingly not reading what I wrote. That’s not a normal behaviour.

I clearly said Dolby Atmos Logo, multiple times! Why are you still talking about Dolby Cinema and confusing the issue?
Let's cut through your posturing and go back to your original statement which prompted my response.

"
Much like the consumer can change their volume control, so can theaters regardless of the mastering levels.
"No they can't. They will loose their Dolby certification. I am surprised that someone with a username: soundmixer didn't know that."

Where is the Dolby logo in this response? What does the logo have to do with mastering levels OR playback levels in commercial theaters? This is what I originally responded to, and now you are doing revisionist history. I call BS on this.

"The brand on theatres are Dolby’s trademarks that they may allow the theatres to use if they allow their technicians to test and calibrate their sound system."

Not true at all, and it doesn't square with your own statement here. Dolby does not send out their technicians to test and calibrate all 6000 Atmos theaters, and they do not need to send out technicians to test or calibrate all 250 Dolby Cinemas. The former is not tested at all. All it requires is for theaters to pay for the Atmos logo. The latter is tested twice a year remotely via Dolby's required off-site monitoring system.

"A small UK cinema chain was forced to pay Dolby and got certified in order to display Dolby Atmos logo on their marketing and on the entrance to their theatres."

How does a suit on a logo square with the loss of a certification as a result of improper playback levels? They are not remotely related, but you blow this smoke in my face and expect me to be confused by that effort. My fan is turned on high on this one.

"Cinema chain had to pay to be certified in order to display the Dolby Atmos logo on their cinema and marketing."

My question to you goes back to your original statement. Did the cinema lose its certification because they did not play back the levels Dolby requires? The answer is no.

Your lawsuit narrative is a red herring to hide your original statement. This thread is about loudness levels, not about a marketing logo or a lawsuit based on it.

Nomudplease.com.
 
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sarumbear

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Your lawsuit narrative is a red herring to hide your original statement. This thread is about loudness levels, not about a marketing logo or a lawsuit based on it.

Nomudplease.com.
Certification involves level setting. If you are not certified you can change the levels in your theatre. But if you are not certified, Dolby prohibits you from displaying their logo, which has financial consequences for the owner. Anyone who read what I wrote should understand these facts. Everyone but you it seems.

Anyway, find someone else to argue. I made my case and members can make up their minds on what I’m trying to explain.
 
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EEE272

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I don't think it's as successful as you assume it is, all major movies are still mixed for IMAX cinemas.


Would you happen to know what mixing for iMax instead of Dolby entails? I heard Dune was considered way too loud in iMax by many. Is it still the typical -20=85 or higher? Or is it loud because they can use all speakers together down to 20 Hz?
I am also asking because I am curious if that might be a format on Disney plus with an actual reference level for blockbuster movies.
 

Soundmixer

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Certification involves level setting.
As a person who mixes in an Atmos-certified studio, you are incorrect. The only thing that certification covers are the setup of the theater/studio and the ability to market it by using the Atmos trademark. I can master at whatever volume I want in that studio, and as long as my studio pays for that certification, it will remain certified. Can you explain to me how Dolby monitors the level setting from movie to movie, on a daily basis in all 6000 Atmos-certified theaters and hundreds of Atmos-certified studios? I can't wait to hear this.
If you are not certified you can change the levels in your theatre

If I am certified, I can also change the levels. The level button is in the projection room, not at Dolby's headquarters! LOLOL!!! It is not frozen into place, and the staff can change the level any time they feel like it. Case and point. I participated in an evaluation of THX theater sound systems for SMPTE over a decade ago. We not only measured the system to see if it met THX standards, but we also went into several movies being watched and measured their average and peak loudness. Not one of those THX-certified theaters measured the same, and only three out of 20 played back movies at the THX-certified volume level. Some were louder, some much softer, but only three had the master fader at +7. All had THX badges proudly displayed at the theater entrance because they all paid the licensing fee.
Dolby prohibits you from displaying their logo, which has financial consequences for the owner.

That is if you don't pay the licensing fee. That has nothing to do with play-back volume - something they don't monitor.
Anyway, find someone else to argue. I made my case and members can make up their minds on what I’m trying to explain.
Your case is based on ignorance. Your explanation is devoid of facts, and Stevie Wonder can clearly see this. Please, take your ball and jacks, and head for the door ball by all means. Your muddy misinformation is not helping the conversation one bit.
 
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sarumbear

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Your muddy misinformation is not helping the conversation one bit.
The conversation was actually started by me. The above person has joined in disagreeing while not offering an iota of reference other than "I know." I also cannot say anything other than I know but the difference is I was in a court room when the situation was explained at a UK High Court and the judge agreed. I could obviously be lying but why would I, especially when I am trying to point to the members of the forum to potential health hazards of loud listening? There are loads of anecdotal evidence that sound levels in cinemas are too high. Even a few on this thread said it.

So dear member, it is for you to decide; will you agree on a person who is involved in creating such high mixes with possible health hazards, and think there is no issue what-so-ever with sound levels in public cinemas, or agree with me that operating your home theatre at the calibrated level may hasten your hearing to deteriorate?

It is your health.
 

Soundmixer

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So dear member, it is for you to decide; will you agree on a person who is involved in creating such high mixes with possible health hazards, and think there is no issue what-so-ever with sound levels in public cinemas, or agree with me that operating your home theatre at the calibrated level may hasten your hearing to deteriorate?
I hate to say this, but this is just another comment filled with ignorance. The mix levels have nothing to do with anything here. It is the playback levels that are the problem. It is not so smart to think a mixer would sit for hours on end listening to their mix at high levels. That is an early career-ending practice. None of the links that have been posted in this thread even speak of the mixing stage, they are speaking about playback levels IN THEATRES, and we have absolutely no control of that.

Both you and the not-so-bright person that shall not be named need to learn who does what where. Attacking the sound designers and mixers is like attacking the dog food when a dog resource guards it. Instead of coming to us mixers, go to your theatre manager. I cannot turn a damn thing down in a theater, but a theater manager can.
 

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I am also asking because I am curious if that might be a format on Disney plus with an actual reference level for blockbuster movies.
Disney plus movies are mastered at 77-79db. It is that way for their own content, and it will be for their IMAX enhanced content as well.
 
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sarumbear

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Contrary to the perception among the sound engineers, the thought “the mix levels have nothing to do with anything here” is a fallacy. It matters directly to the level in cinemas. That is why LUFS is invented so that irrespective of monitoring levels — even without listening! — we can measure how loud the mix is. They are knowledgeable enough to understand this but for some reason they choose to ignore it.
 

Andysu

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Chief projectionist at UCI, tower park, this is 32 years ago and he often would make the prints up or deputy. Chief often would have Dolbt fader set at 6.5, oh my, that is few dB below the mixers loud level mixes they often mix. oh my. Actually it wasn't that loud, it was loud but not harsh sounding and harshness only comes from the HF horns or maybe though the surrounds mid and high range of three-way surround or two-way with smaller horn. I didn't once have to cover my ears while working there or seeing a movie there. Bass mid was okay, better than any tv or home cinema at the time. But never once harsh. Loud yes. but never deafening like I have noticed with film mixes today and some cinemas often JBL PA speakers.

UCI Lee Valley 12 plex, went there for interview late 90's and while waiting, watching movie in mid size auditorium. They had three size auditoriums, small mid and large. While waiting watching Face/Off, in SR-D via CP500 using JBL same surrounds speakers I use, the stage speakers may have been smaller model down from the JBL 4675A (that was used for the larger auditorium). Face/Off, was Deafeningly Loud!

While watching it while waiting as I counted the reels I think it was by end of 3rd reel my interview was ready, but that's not important. What is important that I noticed, four Asians three rows in front of me getting rather uncomfortable with Deafeningly film mix. And maybe the cinema installer of the JBL speakers, could have been installed by, Bell theatre service, Cinema associates or Future projections? Thou I nominate Bell theatre service they mostly often did UCI cinemas mostly the time, mostly maybe. So part of possible its possible. Then another sound guy will often be hired come in and do the EQ X-curve turning. It's possible he rushed or is overpaid and getting sloppy at his work?

So I knew these four Asians was about to get up and walk out before end of reel 3 and I was soundly spot on, as I can see the body chemistry.
I had to place my fingers over my ears few times with chase scene with helicopter and airplane and crashing into a airplane hanger. There simply wasn't enough decent bass on the playback in the auditorium it was, TOPPY!

I can play the same film on THX/Laserdisc AC-3 if I wanted to to check the loudness. So what if my room is small. It is unnecessary for soundmixers to do near field mixes, since a film print would play in many sized auditoriums with the sound gain settings and amplifier levels adjusted for the auditorium size. You don't put small size gain settings into a large auditorium it sound way too quiet. You don't put large auditorium gain level settings into a small auditorium, everyone will be sticking their fingers or earplugs in their ears or running out of the auditorium.

Another case was when I went to see 'wolverine x-man' at the Warner village west end, Leicester Square, I think screen 7, and I think I noticed the changed in the cinema PA speakers was no longer JBL but Martin audio. I also believe I think, Warner lost it's THX licence as there was no THX trailer or Warner projection was getting lazy at doing proper showmanship presentations, because it was Utter rubbish from start of show to end credits.
It was DEAFENING that I had to ware my earplugs. I believe I was sat, front and centre row. Yep, I saw no THX trailer I believe it was also Dolby cinema digital projection and looked utter rubbish. Film or digital film really has driven cinema down the toilet.

There was a bit of bass but new Warner village west end, never did have good THX for bass, it was rubbish when I went there few weeks after it reopened with 'Maverick' Dolby SR THX and I measured 90dBA peak with that horse wagon chase that made me few times cover my ears. Anyway Warner village, was Nothing as near or close to the CIC UCI High Wycombe in terms of Bass that continuously pressing on the body from shoes to legs body face even my hair and had loud but exciting HF horn coverage through to the surrounds with, 'Arachnophobia' Dolby SR THX.

So after listening to that rubbish x-man about some wolf-reen and being deafened by soundmixers, I came home.

Only two THX cinemas I been to that had 10/10 score marks CIC Empire Leicester Square and High Wycombe. Maybe the UCI Solihull THX sounded good, I don't know it is further than London and doesn't exist anymore.
 

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Contrary to the perception among the sound engineers, the thought “the mix levels have nothing to do with anything here” is a fallacy. It matters directly to the level in cinemas.
BS. The levels are adjustable in the Cinema. This video aptly demonstrates this. Pay attention to the commentary from 1:53 and on. They did (as I did) peak loudness measurements in the theaters in their area (just like I did), and the peak loudness was all over the place (just like they were in our measurement project on THX theaters and screening rooms). This my friend shows that any auditorium's master volume level can be adjusted so a manager can address any volume level complaint in any auditorium in real-time. This is regardless of the mix level, of which nobody knows except the mixers. Your statement is illogical, and shows total ignorance of how things work.

That is why LUFS is invented so that irrespective of monitoring levels — even without listening! — we can measure how loud the mix is.
You can measure how loud the mix is, but that is completely different from how loud the mix is played back. sigh! Just like I have a volume control on my receiver, a theater has a volume control on its server. I can turn up or down the volume at will, and so can a movie theater, and the link above shows this.

Anyone who has watched a lot of movies on disc knows that there are movies that are mastered quite high, and others that are mastered quite low. If it is mastered too high, you reach over and turn it down if it is offensive (Transformer movies). If it is too low, you turn it up until you are comfortable (some Disney movies). Same in a movie theater. Mastering levels have nothing to do with playback levels when there is a volume control at the playback end. This is illogical to think otherwise.
 
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sarumbear

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The levels are adjustable in the Cinema. This video aptly demonstrates this.
HA! :p Watch what is said between 3:52 - 4:10. If you change the calibration level you won't hear the dialog. This is why sound levels are calibrated and cinemas do not want to mess with the calibrated levels. This is why Dolby insist on calibrating the cinemas levels.

Everything you said so far have been proven wrong by your reference! I cannot believe you posted that video. I will add it to my original post. Thank you!

The entire video proves what I have posted is correct and that sound designers are at fault for mixing the track too loud. Do please realise this.
 

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BS. The levels are adjustable in the Cinema. This video aptly demonstrates this. Pay attention to the commentary from 1:53 and on. They did (as I did) peak loudness measurements in the theaters in their area (just like I did), and the peak loudness was all over the place (just like they were in our measurement project on THX theaters and screening rooms). This my friend shows that any auditorium's master volume level can be adjusted so a manager can address any volume level complaint in any auditorium in real-time. This is regardless of the mix level, of which nobody knows except the mixers. Your statement is illogical, and shows total ignorance of how things work.


You can measure how loud the mix is, but that is completely different from how loud the mix is played back. sigh! Just like I have a volume control on my receiver, a theater has a volume control on its server. I can turn up or down the volume at will, and so can a movie theater, and the link above shows this.

Anyone who has watched a lot of movies on disc knows that there are movies that are mastered quite high, and others that are mastered quite low. If it is mastered too high, you reach over and turn it down if it is offensive (Transformer movies). If it is too low, you turn it up until you are comfortable (some Disney movies). Same in a movie theater. Mastering levels have nothing to do with playback levels when there is a volume control at the playback end. This is illogical to think otherwise.

That video is very choppy and short and no attention to detail what so ever. All these aes, ces smpte speeches about x-curve soundmixer levels are all bs. You'd think you'd get practical demonstration of it all been microphone up and testing using a say, Dolby CP750 and what it takes to achieve. All those smpte white papers are boring. With all the video gear cameras and not a single video.

Films often have very soft dynamic range mixes to create a sense of, psychoacoustic. Take scene in 'Heat' has a soft spoken scene that made me get into the scene learning forward slightly.

Better to actually play the DVD, forget about the special edition version its not the theatical version. Use the early DVD or AC-3 Laserdisc. I can hear it on my JBL THX cinema reference no problem sounds almost the same.
 
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Andysu

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Heat 1995 was THX/TAP - it sounded okay on JBL 4675A at non-THX cinema down town good bass and top end not harsh just loud exciting even on the shootout using production sound.
 

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HA! :p Watch what is said between 3:52 - 4:10. If you change the calibration level you won't hear the dialog
So what happens....does the dialog just disappear? No, it does not. When you turn down the master fader in the projection booth, the levels of EVERYTHING go down. Does the dialog become difficult to hear when I turn down my own volume during movies? No, it does not. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? The only way the dialog becomes inaudible is if the mix was poorly done in the first place.
This is why Dolby insist on calibrating the cinemas levels.
The only theaters Dolby calibrates are Dolby Cinema theaters. They do it remotely, not on site - they only have 250 theaters. Dolby does not calibrate Atmos capable theaters, they never have. Get your facts straight! Dolby has 2700 employees split over several divisions in several countries. How in the heck can they check and calibrate all 6000 Atmos capable theaters twice a year?
The entire video proves what I have posted is correct and that sound designers are at fault for mixing the track too loud.
They never mentioned a word about sound designers in this video. They repeatedly mention playback levels in theaters. It is clear here you don't know what you are talking about, and this is why you are pretending and posturing.
 
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sarumbear

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So what happens....does the dialog just disappear? No, it does not. When you turn down the master fader in the projection booth, the levels of EVERYTHING go down. Does the dialog become difficult to hear when I turn down my own volume during movies? No, it does not. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
My dear sir, you are funny, really funny. You are asking me a rhetorical question but the video you referred to says that when the volume turned down audience cannot hear the dialog. The presenter even makes fun of it. I am not making this up.
They never mentioned a word about sound designers in this video. They repeatedly mention playback levels in theaters. It is clear here you don't know what you are talking about, and this is why you are pretending and posturing.
Really? Are you now going to tell me that the sound engineer mentioned at 4:15 who calls the situation as "audio abuse" is not the same as a sound designer?
 
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