Info. on new Matrix Audio mini-i

[mdl]

I THINK I HAVE IT FIGURED OUT!!!

I had an old macbook 13" from god knows when (very old), but I was able to load Roon Bridge on it. After that, I took the USB out to the Mini-i Pro 3. In Roon, it showed both the mackbook AND the Mini-i!!!! Looks like fully configurable as well! I am now streaming Tidal from Roon over the network to the Mac/Mini-i Pro 3!!!! With Full MQA decoding and lovely numbers for the frequency!!!

So there's your work around until MA get certified!

...now if only the squidgy graphics issues in Roon, like blank screen on resize and funky UI artifacts get fixed, we're good to go!!!View attachment 94735

Well done don! You must be chuffed
As you said I'm.hooing tidal connect will help non-roon users to plough on doing the same
How about sound...is the mqa sound deeper and more neat? That's my experience with mqa with my dap or mobile+dragonfly cobalt ...would love to try on the mini although I've halted my tidal account until tidal connect gets implemented

Ps curyisity,: you left the Mac attached to the mini via usb while streaming using your iPad/mobile as remote ...correct? So that your Mac was unfolding first and Roon was seeing your Mac and a local streamer?

 

[mdl]

I believe that people all over the world are waiting when MA will finish Roon certification and implement Tidal connect to buy that product, at least I know 3 of them in my country (including me). So I would say it's a must for mini-i 3 series, as it has limited MA player lite and only Roon and Tidal are only options to stream high quality content.
Hence, dear @MatrixAudio please finalize Roon certification and adopt to Tidal connect as soon as possible and you will see increased interest for you product.
Thanks

Very much so!!! Tidal connect will be the real deal ....no other product at this price point will sound or be feature packed like this mini
We are talking sound quality and construction beyond chippy chappy stuff

 

[donmiller714]

Second question: Do I need to enable/disable the advanced device setting "Enable MQA Core Decoder"

Well done don! You must be chuffed
As you said I'm.hooing tidal connect will help non-roon users to plough on doing the same
How about sound...is the mqa sound deeper and more neat? That's my experience with mqa with my dap or mobile+dragonfly cobalt ...would love to try on the mini although I've halted my tidal account until tidal connect gets implemented

Ps curyisity,: you left the Mac attached to the mini via usb while streaming using your iPad/mobile as remote ...correct? So that your Mac was unfolding first and Roon was seeing your Mac and a local streamer?

Yes, working fine via Roon and my iphone as a remote. And according to Roon I'm getting full decoding on the mini (not the mac) as I have the zone (mini-i) configured as both a decoder and renderer:

 

[donmiller714]

Second question: Do I need to enable/disable the advanced device setting "Enable MQA Core Decoder"


Yes, working fine via Roon and my iphone as a remote. And according to Roon I'm getting full decoding on the mini (not the mac) as I have the zone (mini-i) configured as both a decoder and renderer:
View attachment 95019

UPDATE:
I got a nice note back from MA Support:

*************************************
Thanks for your patience.

'MQA' or ' MQA.' indicates that the product is decoding and playing an MQA stream or file, and denotes provenance to ensure that the sound is identical to that of the source material.
Green or blue dot beside MQA logo indicates that the product is decoding and playing an MQA stream or file, and denotes provenance to ensure that the sound is identical to that of the source material.


The dot glows magenta(purple) to indicate that the unit is rendering an MQA stream or file. This delivers the final unfold of the MQA file.

**************************************

I set the Mini-i Pro 3 to "Renderer Only" in Roon and now I get the magenta light on the Mini-i, but the signal path now shows Roon is doing the initial decode and the rendering done on the Mini-i:

 

[mdl]

UPDATE:
I got a nice note back from MA Support:

*************************************
Thanks for your patience.

'MQA' or ' MQA.' indicates that the product is decoding and playing an MQA stream or file, and denotes provenance to ensure that the sound is identical to that of the source material.
Green or blue dot beside MQA logo indicates that the product is decoding and playing an MQA stream or file, and denotes provenance to ensure that the sound is identical to that of the source material.


The dot glows magenta(purple) to indicate that the unit is rendering an MQA stream or file. This delivers the final unfold of the MQA file.

**************************************

I set the Mini-i Pro 3 to "Renderer Only" in Roon and now I get the magenta light on the Mini-i, but the signal path now shows Roon is doing the initial decode and the rendering done on the Mini-i:

View attachment 95266

interesting also for non roon users. the mini can't do the whole MQA decoder/renderer exercise autonomously unless it pushes up to the roon core one part of the "job". Going to sound like a broken record...I wonder what happens when -and hopefully not if- MA will implement Tidal Connect. Will the mini be able to do the whole decoding/rendering within the one box with no external software?
If I compare with my DAP (a very modest FIIO M9), with the built in Tidal native app, it can decode/render an MQA file without "external" help... can't be a only a hardware limitation on the mini.
what do you guys think?

 

[donmiller714]

interesting also for non roon users. the mini can't do the whole MQA decoder/renderer exercise autonomously unless it pushes up to the roon core one part of the "job". Going to sound like a broken record...I wonder what happens when -and hopefully not if- MA will implement Tidal Connect. Will the mini be able to do the whole decoding/rendering within the one box with no external software?
If I compare with my DAP (a very modest FIIO M9), with the built in Tidal native app, it can decode/render an MQA file without "external" help... can't be a only a hardware limitation on the mini.
what do you guys think?

Well the Mini-i Pro 3 (which is what I have) is ADVERTISED to be a MQA Full decoder and renderer, and I have to believe that so far (because WTF, it's also advertised as "Roon Ready", right?!?!?). I suspect that when configured in Roon as a decoder + renderer, the Pro is doing the core decode and subsequent unfolding, but it doesn't indicate magenta because the pipeline is starting with the core decode. When the core decode is done externally, all the Pro needs to do is unfold, so we get the magenta light. I have an email into MA about this. We'll see! In any case, I'm still getting very high sample rates displayed on the Pro in either mode. I downloaded a sample (David Elias - The Window - Vision Of Her (352.8 kHz).mqa.flac) and I get 352.8 kHz regardless of how I set the device in Roon.

 

[mdl]

I THINK I HAVE IT FIGURED OUT!!!

I had an old macbook 13" from god knows when (very old), but I was able to load Roon Bridge on it. After that, I took the USB out to the Mini-i Pro 3. In Roon, it showed both the mackbook AND the Mini-i!!!! Looks like fully configurable as well! I am now streaming Tidal from Roon over the network to the Mac/Mini-i Pro 3!!!! With Full MQA decoding and lovely numbers for the frequency!!!

So there's your work around until MA get certified!

...now if only the squidgy graphics issues in Roon, like blank screen on resize and funky UI artifacts get fixed, we're good to go!!!View attachment 94735

I took the plunge...tidal hi fi 4 months for £1.99/month and used the matrix roon 60 days free.
I've followed your suggestions using my wife's MacBook air as roon core, but no avail...can't seem to use the matrix unless it's via airplay. Dang...
(Via usb I got to play mqa up to 358khz!)
Where am I getting it wrong?
Ps I've installed Roon as core on the Mac not as Roon remote as i don't have another core.

 

[donmiller714]

I took the plunge...tidal hi fi 4 months for £1.99/month and used the matrix roon 60 days free.
I've followed your suggestions using my wife's MacBook air as roon core, but no avail...can't seem to use the matrix unless it's via airplay. Dang...
(Via usb I got to play mqa up to 358khz!)
Where am I getting it wrong?
Ps I've installed Roon as core on the Mac not as Roon remote as i don't have another core.

That's probably the difference. I have core running on my PC, and the macbook as a roon bridge. Although, I don't see why you can't play out the standard usb on your mac and use the system zones.

 

[marckgoran]

There may be "additional" steps required to set up your Roon on mac, you maybe need to go and research the settings. I have never used Roon until like five days ago but upon installing Roon app on my Mac, then going through additional settings which are required by Roon to configure "any" audio sources that are connected or can be connected via your Mac.

Long story short, there is no trick, no hack for making your MA mini-i to work via Roon app on Mac and using your iPhone via Roon Remote app as your remote. It just not as straightforward to set up as it should be. This really isn't something to blame Matrix Audio but rather of UI design by Roon app, which doesn’t make the whole process more simple.

I would suggest, to go and check all the possible settings for any connections found in your Roon app that is running on Mac. You most probably missed something or have something set up the wrong way.

Note: when you are configuring your MA mini-i to work via Roon app, remember which USB connection on your Mac you were using, as for some reason if you don't always plug it in that same USB port it will not be recognised (or it may not be) be recognised by Roon unless you go through the set up process again for other USB port. I would blame Roon app for this, the audio source once configured in Roon should be re-recognised independently of the USB port which is being used.

In any case, I can confirm that MA mini-i works without any issues when you use a Roon app on your Mac as an intermediary. What we don't have yet is MA mini-i pro to work with your iPhone without the MacBook as an intermediary. For that that certification process needs to be completed.

There are two Roon apps in the App store, one is called Roon Remote app, the other is Roon essentials remote app …which is confusing and has an important distinction. For the case discussed here you need to use Roon Remote app which will then connect to Roon app on your Mac. If and when MA mini-i pro will be certified by Roon, we will be able to use Roon essentials remote app, which works without the need to connect to Roon app on your Mac. This was implied in app descriptions when I checked.

I am really new to all of this audiophile stuff but consider to be an advanced user when it comes to computers and I must say Roon set up process is not user-friendly for use case which we are discussing here. I had no issues but I would be surprised if an average user wouldn't find it confusing and missing a step or two, needed to make this work from the get go.

That being said, if Tidal connect can/will be implemented via future firmware update, this would offer a far superior user experience in terms of simplicity, not to mention saving on money. You would just use your Tidal app which you already have and that’s that …no other set up, apps or services needed at all.

As a first-time Roon user, I find little to convince me why would I pay for it? When playing the same playlist over MA mini-i pro via USB connection, I find the listening experience via Tidal superior (master subscription option). Roon seems to offer a bunch of additonal settings which may benefit those who need some custom set up to get the most out their specific audio system set up and/or those who own a precious library of master audio files. I on the other hand primarily use my MA mini-i pro paired with Topping A90 for listening via headphones via streaming subscription service when working on my computer. Tidal sounds better out of the box to me, while I need to play with settings on Roon to try and match what Tidal gives without any config (other then checking if Use Exclusive Mode and Passthrough MQA is enabled). I have been switching between the two (Tidal and Roon) for a few days yet find Tidal experience more consistent across the board and better sounding for my use case.

Your experience may be different but this is my take as newbie to all of this, I really have no biases to neither Roon nor Tidal and if it were up to me, I would use Spotify as I find their algorithm for discovering new music superior to all others …yet unfortunately for me, Tidal really has convinced me when it comes to sound quality, which is why I am using both Spotify as Tidal for the time being.

Tidal Connect, for me please, if possible

 

[GDK]

What we don't have yet is MA mini-i pro to work with your iPhone without the MacBook as an intermediary. For that that certification process needs to be completed.

That's not actually how Roon works. You will need a computer at all times to use Roon. The Minis are only Roon endpoints - the certification process will not change that. All the Roon Ready certification will do is allow you to connect your computer to the Mini via ethernet or wifi (in the case of the Pro).

 

[mdl]

That's not actually how Roon works. You will need a computer at all times to use Roon. The Minis are only Roon endpoints - the certification process will not change that. All the Roon Ready certification will do is allow you to connect your computer to the Mini via ethernet or wifi (in the case of the Pro).

as Don said, I'm a roon newbie and yet not entirely sure of the overall value (which is besides the point and I don't want to offend any Roon user, so don't take it the wrong way) as I don't have a NAS (or want one yet). It's fine balance between functionality and simplicity. I have preferred working through the Tidal app via USB and this has given the most effective sampling rates plus I haven't got a pc and mac to spare. The only benefit roon has provided is that I can use my android mobile to play files over the wireless on the mini using Airplay protocol at 44.1.

Ideally yes... I wouldn't want to invest in roon (the 60 days given by matrix are to me a stop gap) and would like to just use my mobile as a remote to play MQAs/hi res and be offered new playing ideas with folding/unfolding done within the mini which implies not having an "always on" additional device as roon core.
Tidal connect would radically change the scenario.

Hope Matrix is listening and hopefully make our life so much better.
Alternatively we can hope apple makes a Airplay 3 with MQA capability (*just joking!)...(and I left Apple to Android hope no offended fellow audiophiles).

 

[GDK]

as Don said, I'm a roon newbie and yet not entirely sure of the overall value (which is besides the point and I don't want to offend any Roon user, so don't take it the wrong way) as I don't have a NAS (or want one yet). It's fine balance between functionality and simplicity. I have preferred working through the Tidal app via USB and this has given the most effective sampling rates plus I haven't got a pc and mac to spare. The only benefit roon has provided is that I can use my android mobile to play files over the wireless on the mini using Airplay protocol at 44.1.

Ideally yes... I wouldn't want to invest in roon (the 60 days given by matrix are to me a stop gap) and would like to just use my mobile as a remote to play MQAs/hi res and be offered new playing ideas with folding/unfolding done within the mini which implies not having an "always on" additional device as roon core.
Tidal connect would radically change the scenario.

Hope Matrix is listening and hopefully make our life so much better.
Alternatively we can hope apple makes a Airplay 3 with MQA capability (*just joking!)...(and I left Apple to Android hope no offended fellow audiophiles).

FWIW, a few thoughts here from me on your post:

Don't try to use Roon with a NAS - it really needs a proper computer to work well. I picked up a very old (2009) Mac Mini to use as a dedicated streamer, but any PC should work fine - and it doesn't need to be dedicated to Roon (particularly if all you are doing is streaming).

Roon is definitely not for everyone. As I see it, it provides three main benefits: the ability to apply DSP for room correction or headphone EQ; the ability to run a multi-room system; and the seamless integration between your local library and Tidal/Qobuz. If none of these have value for you, then Roon likely won't be worth it. Some people like the linked metadata, for me that is only a nice-to-have. If all you want to do is to stream from Tidal, then their app offers a much cheaper alternative for that.

As I think I mentioned before, in my view the Matrix Mini is very much targeted at the Roon market as it lacks the ability to play from a library and does not support many streaming alternatives. I am not sure why anyone would have bought this unless they were planning to use Roon, but perhaps I am missing something.

MQA is not actually that big of a deal. The received wisdom is that you can't hear a difference between it and the equivalent FLAC file and, if you can, it is probably because it is being sourced from a different (better or worse) master, rather than anything to do with the MQA process.

 

[marckgoran]

That's not actually how Roon works. You will need a computer at all times to use Roon. The Minis are only Roon endpoints - the certification process will not change that. All the Roon Ready certification will do is allow you to connect your computer to the Mini via ethernet or wifi (in the case of the Pro).

Sorry, yes I seem to be wrong here. Things are actually worse when it comes to Roon usecase then. I should have read more in detail about benefits of "certification" which are arguably far less then I thought. Like I said I really am a newbie when it comes to Roon and what I thought, Roon certified means is like what AirPlay support means for devices.

That being said I find it really dissapointing what Roon certified device offers then. If I want to stream via mobile, then I surely do not want to have a desktop computer in between, there is really true "mobile" way of doing things but rather only using your mobile as a remote then. When you can take your desktop or any other Roon component out of the process and connect directly from mobile to your audio device, this is what I am looking for.

I can have my computer conected to audio device all the time if I must yet then why do I care about roon certification at all? Is an honest question, problably only if I would want to use multiple Roon certified devices to work together. While if I am gonna use just one Roon device, is there any benefit compared to what I can already have now via Roon Remote app connecting to my Roon app on Mac? Forgive my ignorance, it is just as Roon hasn't won me over enough I didn't digg deeper then what I know at this time.

If Tidal connect offers same quality of audio transmission as via usb connection or at least a better one then AirPlay does then this is what I would vote for.

 

[marckgoran]

FWIW, a few thoughts here from me on your post:
Roon is definitely not for everyone. As I see it, it provides three main benefits: the ability to apply DSP for room correction or headphone EQ; the ability to run a multi-room system; and the seamless integration between your local library and Tidal/Qobuz. If none of these have value for you, then Roon likely won't be worth it. Some people like the linked metadata, for me that is only a nice-to-have. If all you want to do is to stream from Tidal, then their app offers a much cheaper alternative for that.

You answered my main questions right there …so fortunately for the time being I have no need of Roon, it may change in the future but for now Tidal connect would be really welcome. Interested if there will be any positive developement in this regard.

 

[donmiller714]

Myself also a Roon/DAC newbie, I find the benefit for me is signal path and connectivity. Connected as I am today using my old Macbook as a Roon bridge, and without Roon certification for the Mini-i, the signal path is polluted with electrical noise by the mac’s USB port and anything else going on inside the Mac; the Mac’s USB port simply isn’t focused on audio quality. When the Mini-i gets certified, then the Mini-i signal path would skip the Macbook entirely and stream straight over the network from Tidal when playing music from Tidal, or locally stored music on my network. That’s what Roon delivers for me. I assume the signal path there will be Tidal stream -> Roon core machine -> Mini-I (over ethernet) -> amplifier via RCA. John Darko does a lot of YouTube vids about this you can go check out. Keep in mind that MQA does not unfold higher bitrates, it unfolds higher sample rates, which you won’t get over airplay or bt.

Connectivity-wise, I have to make this a very simple operation for others in the household who are not as technically astute. I don’t want to tell them, “…first wake-up the PC and start Roon Core, then go wake-up the Macbook, then turn on the DAC…” etc. So ultimately, I’ll likely convert my Roon Core from my PC to a NUC 10 that I’ll have in my media cab, and a NAS with all the music files, likely in my office (unless it’s too noisy, then I’ll put it elsewhere on the network, like in grandma’s room perhaps? Lol!). With Core always running, the NAS always running, and the Mini-i networked, it should be a simple matter for the others to use their phones to stream music from any collection they have.

Another note: I did a test the other day using some Fleetwood Mac classics (because that was the only music I found in short order where I could compare airplay, bt, and my Roon bridge setup). It’s a night and day difference, with the Roon providing the highest resolution signal. I have a Denon, so I used Heos to stream music as I used to. Flipping between Heos and Roon on my iPhone there was no comparison.

 

[GDK]

I can have my computer conected to audio device all the time if I must yet then why do I care about roon certification at all?

For me, the big advantage of Roon certification for the Mini (which may not apply to you) is that you would be able to stream to it over wifi. That is the only reason why I would choose the Pro version of it. My Mac sits in my basement attached to my server and streams music to my listening room; therefore, I don't have to hear the Mac's hard drive or fans when it is being used. That is the only advantage that I can see.

Virtually any DAC with a USB connection can be used perfectly well with Roon. Add a cheap Raspberry Pi and you have a dedicated streamer that again will work flawlessly. The Mini offers a couple of advantages over this set-up (like HP use and a nice screen), but probably not much more than that (from a Roon perspective at least).

 

[GDK]

Roon certification for the Mini-i, the signal path is polluted with electrical noise by the mac’s USB port and anything else going on inside the Mac; the Mac’s USB port simply isn’t focused on audio quality

I think you might want to spend some more time on this site, but that is not a real issue.

 

[marckgoran]

For me, the big advantage of Roon certification for the Mini (which may not apply to you) is that you would be able to stream to it over wifi. That is the only reason why I would choose the Pro version of it. My Mac sits in my basement attached to my server and streams music to my listening room; therefore, I don't have to hear the Mac's hard drive or fans when it is being used. That is the only advantage that I can see.

Virtually any DAC with a USB connection can be used perfectly well with Roon. Add a cheap Raspberry Pi and you have a dedicated streamer that again will work flawlessly. The Mini offers a couple of advantages over this set-up (like HP use and a nice screen), but probably not much more than that (from a Roon perspective at least).

This is all well and like you said works for your use case, allowing you to have your computer in your basement long cable connection would really be far less convenient ...even though you can already without the Roon certification at this moment already stream via same wifi if you use only a Roon remote app connected to desktop Roon app, connected via usb to audio device. Just not via wifi connection between audio device and Roon app on your desktop computer.

I have mini-i pro by the way.

 

[marckgoran]

I think you might want to spend some more time on this site, but that is not a real issue.

Agree.

Also I have no audible (to my ears) pollution issue in my setup via USB connection even though I use only stock apple usb-c cable.

I am quite happy with what I get sound quality wise via USB, now getting the same via wifi is the issue at this point

 

[mdl]

https://matrix-digi.com/en/news/20201124508.html
Progress report of Roon certification of mini-i 3 series
2020-11-24 15:06news
According to Roon Labs latest policies, uncertified devices would not be enabled as a play zone of the Roon system from September 21st.
As the Roon Ready test of the mini-i Pro 3 and mini-i 3 is still in progres, users of mini-i Pro 3 and mini-i 3 will be affected by this new policy before the certification finished. The device cannot work as a Roon Ready network player.
Matrix respect Roon Labs’ decisions, because Roon Ready certification ensures an excellent user experience Roon and its partner hardwares.
Since submitting the first firmware for certification testing to Roon Labs on September 13, 2020, we have received 3 feedbacks from them, they reported 17 bugs in total. Matrix has fixed 12 bugs so far, there are 5 bugs remaining. It is expected that we will submit the firmware for the third round review to Roon Labs within this week. If there is any further information, we will inform to the public again.
Thank you for your understanding!
Note: element X, element P, element M and element i have completed Roon Ready certification and will not be affected by this new policy


for you roon users...it's coming

anyway. This is quite a saga which is very instructive. I have sent an email to Tidal asking to support Matrix in their venture to Tidal Connect. I know...
@MatrixAudio : I am fully aware customers won't be allowed to play a part in your BtB discussions although I wanted you to know we are trying to make our voice heard and hopefully Tidal will listen. Indeed, more than Roon ...Tidal Connect is the answer
@marckgoran why don't we all send an email to Tidal asking to improve the user experience with matrix digital? Staying with Tidal is pretty much linked to Tidal connect and Matrix mini i 3 pro. Listening experience with a violin concerto @ 348Khz via Tidal App +Mac+MA mini via USB was quite a thing...oh my