Is a seperate dac worth it?

[RenPa]

I have a Arcam AVR 21 and Cambridge CXU dvd/cd player (same as Oppo 205) and 5.1 system with B&W speakers and 2 SVS subs. When I listnen music, I prefer my cd and old stereo fashion 2.0 only no Dirac, no bass management. I read the Arcam AV40 and AVR10 review here. Although mine is AVR21 serie it made me doubt.
The CXU has dedicated analogue L & R outputs, the AVR21 has analogue CD inputs.
So I can either listen music with the Cambridge DAC (Wolfson I think) or Arcam DAC (ESS ?) via hdmi cable.

It is difficult for me to determine which one gives the best sound on the musical samples I know by heart. One thing is certain, the sound is different. MaybeI could say that wit Arcam even the sound stage image is also well defined (every instrument or voice in their place) but is a bit through a slight haze with the Arcam.

I read the reviews of Topping or SMSL DAC and asked myself if the expanse would be worth it to put one of these in the chain (I don't 'need' to spend money but if ...). I could connect the Cambridge via optical cable and the dac to the Arcam via analogue cables.
Any thoughts? or advise?

 

[Joffy1780]

Are you based in the UK by any chance? I have an Aune X8 sitting gathering dust, you could have that for the cost of postage and if you thought it improved things you could upgrade to one of the more recent Topping or SMSL offerings (or keep it and save some money).
It's an old DAC, but it still functions perfectly well.

 

[RenPa]

no Canada

 

[Joffy1780]

no Canada

Ok.

 

[Beave]

When you compared the two DACs for sound quality differences, how did you ensure that the levels were closely matched?

Any differences you heard were likely due to a) differing levels b) sighted listening c) much less likely, one DAC or the other isn't up to par.

 

[RenPa]

When you compared the two DACs for sound quality differences, how did you ensure that the levels were closely matched?

Any differences you heard were likely due to a) differing levels b) sighted listening c) much less likely, one DAC or the other isn't up to par.

so you mean that objectively there is no difference between DAC?
To answer your question, vol is set at 62 in the receiver and I swicth with remote between hdmi input and cd input in an instant, those 2 inputs coming from the CXU

 

[Beave]

so you mean that objectively there is no difference between DAC?
To answer your question, vol is set at 62 in the receiver and I swicth with remote between hdmi input and cd input in an instant, those 2 inputs coming from the CXU

And that means that the levels between the two sources may not be the same - leading to you hearing differences.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

so you mean that objectively there is no difference between DAC?
To answer your question, vol is set at 62 in the receiver and I swicth with remote between hdmi input and cd input in an instant, those 2 inputs coming from the CXU

Hi. This does not ensures matched levels at all as the internal gain often differs between different types of inputs. To match levels you need a voltmeter and measure the voltage at the amp out (to your speakers) while for example playing pink noise. Humans are very sensitive to loudness differences and perceive (even slightly) louder as better. So what you heard were differences in loudness.

To your original question. I wouldn’t bother with extra DACs. You won’t hear a difference (if level matched and tested blind).

As a rule of thumb: invest in speakers first for sound improvement as they contribute orders of magnitude more than electronics.

 

[Hattrick]

Hi. This does not ensures matched levels at all as the internal gain often differs between different types of inputs. To match levels you need a voltmeter and measure the voltage at the amp out (to your speakers) while for example playing pink noise. Humans are very sensitive to loudness differences and perceive (even slightly) louder as better. So what you heard were differences in loudness.

To your original question. I wouldn’t bother with extra DACs. You won’t hear a difference (if level matched and tested blind).

As a rule of thumb: invest in speakers first for sound improvement as they contribute orders of magnitude more than electronics.

I just ran a test on my AVR 850 with a SMSL SU-10. Output is set to fixed.
WiiM Pro set to flat and fixed output.
Wiim > SPDIF into Arcam
WiiM > Coax to the SU-10
Arcam has subs turned L&R digital Stereo only. Output levels though not measured with a volt meter but with a SPL meter are almost identical.

I can hear a difference for certain. The SU-10 is more detailed more open, with great balance in frequencies, maybe just a tad hot on the highs, but there are tweaks in the WiiM and the SU 10 to tailor to ones taste.

The Arcam is no slouch at all and is very close and sounds very good! However I like the SU10 better. Now is the audio performance of the SU-10 it worth the cost of improvement at $900? That is subjective.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I just ran a test on my AVR 850 with a SMSL SU-10. Output is set to fixed.
WiiM Pro set to flat and fixed output.
Wiim > SPDIF into Arcam
WiiM > Coax to the SU-10
Arcam has subs turned L&R digital Stereo only. Output levels though not measured with a volt meter but with a SPL meter are almost identical.

I can hear a difference for certain. The SU-10 is more detailed more open, with great balance in frequencies, maybe just a tad hot on the highs, but there are tweaks in the WiiM and the SU 60 to tailor to ones taste.

The Arcam is no slouch at all and is very close and sounds very good! However I like the SU60 better. Now is the audio performance of the SU-10 it worth the cost of improvement at $900? That is subjective.

Levels are not matched as SPL is highly inadequate for this task. Test was sighted. Sorry to say your test is flawed and does not allow any conclusions from.

 

[TonyJZX]

my feeling is that you can always buy an very cheap dac and see how you go

like this place obviously loves the SMSL SU-1

to me AVRs are always a mixed bag... if you dont care about $80 or even a few hundred you can experiment... and they have good resale value if you dont like them

 

[Hattrick]

Levels are not matched as SPL is highly inadequate for this task. Test was sighted. Sorry to say your test is flawed and does not allow any conclusions from.

That was hysterical but your entitled to contest my "hearing results". That is the problem with so many people who judge equipment based on the sole measurements done by Amirim on this site. Technically his work provide great information and is very accurate. However, listening and comparing is the best way to buy audio equipment not relying on testing equipment measurements. There is no way in hell the average person could tell the volume differences with their ears whether it was set by a voltage meter for both devices or a SPL meter to control volume. Thus your comment does not allow any conclusions from.

Note: Though I did buy the SU10 based on Amirim measurements being many do make purchasing decisions from this forum and by the work done by Amirim. This was my own interest to see and hear if the "measurements" reflect better audible sound quality. My findings thus far for the SU10 it sounds great! it is a great sounding DAC as is my Arcam internal DAC.

My "hearing" can detect with volumes not electrically matched but sonically sound to be the same level does and will produce a great comparison. FYI almost all reviews on YouTube do it this way. They look at the measurements and most just say, "It measures really well" but most don't even mention measurements. many who do say that also include in their evaluation comment such as, "what one hears is what only matters." I totally are onboard that ship! I am getting another DAC that doesn't measure as well to the SU10 but the listening reviews are very positive. I will let you know my findings.

 

[Rednaxela]

If you don't except my hearing results don't bother to reply.

Nobody should accept them. Suggesting otherwise demands a reply.

 

[Zensō]

LMAOROTF. That was hysterical but your entitled to contest my "hearing results". That is the problem with so people who judge equipment based on the sole measurements done by Amirim on this site. Technically his work provide great information and is very accurate. However, listening and comparing is the best way to buy audio equipment not relying on testing equipment measurements. Though I did buy the SU10 one based on Amirim measurements one to hear how it sounds foremost and see if the "measurements" reflect better audible sound quality. I am getting another DAC that doesn't measure as well with the SU10 but the listening reviews are very positive. I will let you know my findings. If you don't except my hearing results don't bother to reply.

Or maybe don't post unsubstantiated claims as if they're fact on a science-based audio forum. Just sayin'...

 

[pseudoid]

It is difficult for me to determine which one gives the best sound on the musical samples I know by heart. One thing is certain, the sound is different. MaybeI could say that wit Arcam even the sound stage image is also well defined (every instrument or voice in their place) but is a bit through a slight haze with the Arcam.

If you really cannot definitively determine the differences in sound....
and...

I read the reviews of Topping or SMSL DAC and asked myself if the expanse would be worth it to put one of these in the chain (I don't 'need' to spend money but if ...). I could connect the Cambridge via optical cable and the dac to the Arcam via analogue cables.
Any thoughts? or advise?

Wouldn't adding more electronics in the chain (regardless of $$) compound the difficulties you are experiencing in discerning differences which your ears prefer?
What exactly are you "chasing" as expected improvements or reaching audio-nirvana?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

LMAOROTF. That was hysterical but your entitled to contest my "hearing results". That is the problem with so people who judge equipment based on the sole measurements done by Amirim on this site. Technically his work provide great information and is very accurate. However, listening and comparing is the best way to buy audio equipment not relying on testing equipment measurements. Though I did buy the SU10 one based on Amirim measurements one to hear how it sounds foremost and see if the "measurements" reflect better audible sound quality. I am getting another DAC that doesn't measure as well with the SU10 but the listening reviews are very positive. I will let you know my findings. If you don't except my hearing results don't bother to reply.

You are just fooling yourself - be my guest.

 

[DVDdoug]

I can hear a difference for certain. The SU-10 is more detailed more open, with great balance in frequencies, maybe just a tad hot on the highs, but there are tweaks in the WiiM and the SU 10 to tailor to ones taste.

LMAOROTF. That was hysterical but your entitled to contest my "hearing results". That is the problem with so people who judge equipment based on the sole measurements

You'll ALWAYS hear a difference if there is a (audible) difference in loudness. People will often describe the louder one as "more dynamic", etc. Level matching removes an obvious variable.

A proper, scientific, blind, level-matched, statistical, ABX Test can "prove" (statistically) if you can reliably hear a difference.

And words like "detailed" or "open" don't have any REAL meanings.... With a DAC there is ONLY, noise, distortion, and frequency response. (Sometimes distortion is described as "detail".)

Personally, the only time I've heard a difference/defect from a DAC it was a noisy soundcard. I could hear noise when the hard drive was accessed. And if there is a difference it's usually noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background). Distortion and frequency response are almost always better than human hearing.

 

[Hattrick]

Or maybe don't post unsubstantiated claims as if they're fact on a science-based audio forum. Just sayin'...

I never said stated anything as fact. What is fact is not every measurement post sonic excellence for all listeners. Hearing for oneself is what matters.

 

[Hattrick]

You are just fooling yourself - be my guest.

Yeah me and millions of people who buy audio equipment LMAOROTF.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Yeah me and millions of people who buy audio equipment LMAOROTF.

Yes.