Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[voodooless]

Finally! A convert! To prove your loyalty, you must immediately go out and acquire the most expensive AC power cord you can’t afford, install cable risers and multiple Ethernet reclockers. Then keep posting about your amazing, veil-lifting experience with these tweaks on all audio forums. Others also need to be converted, after all.

Amen brother

 

[SIY]

I've participated in several blind tests for fun and have a few reports, but I'm 110% sure they don't meet your requirements for a blind test, for one thing they haven't been double-blind tests.
But my participation in these has helped confirm that there are sound differences in cables , components and hifi equipment in general

Blind tests are, in my opinion, often more a test of the listener's skills and the quality of the room and the hi-fi system than it is a test of the test object itself

Both when listening and measuring one can subconsciously seek a result , my impression is that most who arrange blind tests do so to prove that there is no sound difference , they have a skepticism that needs to be confirmed .

Some do it to prove that theory and measurement is the whole truth , others are angry about prices and marketing , the starting point for both is often that all high-end manufacturers are fraudsters selling snake oil .

An example of this zeal to prove there is no difference is to record the sound difference from cables on a file .
All engineers know that properly constructed cables should not affect the sound signal.
Which theory , simulation and measurement confirm, and of course no difference is heard between the two identical files.
Yet they use "non-cable believers" that as an argument.

Objectivists may not realize that "cable believers" have been aware of this dilemma, this conundrum for more than 30 years.
That was the reason I wrote my first post in this thread.

Here Sean Olive proves that the placebo effect exists, and that it applies to both subjectivists and objectivists, must be a truth.
https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html
I think many so called serious blind tests have this focus point, which has absolutely nothing to do with hifi but more about either finding the lowest common denominator or finding human weaknesses that we are all proven about and should try to avoid , by not using blind tests but instead listening objectively with a clear reference.
I am 100% sure that I would not have achieved my reproduction with blindtests , A reproduction I for large parts can't put on formula, large parts of the result is due to listening experience and the desire to try things that are not necessarily scientifically documented.

Serious experienced hifi enthusiasts are grown up people who are not lured/seduced by high polished aluminium ,high prices ,nice design and knows brands.
As I said blind testing is not used by serious hifi developers , it is about adding and building on a listening impression , it is not the difference that matters , it is what the difference points towards that is important .There is absolutely no need to confuse this already difficult process with blind testing.

In recent times I have only seen one scientifically person who took hifi seriously and that was Kunchur.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/cables-can-be-measured.36655/
Unfortunately he failed by testing two topologies singleended and balanced against each other instead of two cables. And was rightly heavily criticised, but I liked his approach which was positive hifi rather than anti hifi.

He has promised to correct the error in a new article, I am waiting patiently, but whatever the outcome I am sure no one will change their mind, neither the "non cable believers" nor the believers.
If there is a result, I am also pretty sure it will not be a technical proof, which is what I am looking for and what all technicians looking for.

Shorter version: "I make many extraordinary claims, but have zero evidence. Now stand back while I wave my hands."

 

[antcollinet]

I've participated in several blind tests for fun and have a few reports, but I'm 110% sure they don't meet your requirements for a blind test, for one thing they haven't been double-blind tests.
But my participation in these has helped confirm that there are sound differences in cables , components and hifi equipment in general

Blind tests are, in my opinion, often more a test of the listener's skills and the quality of the room and the hi-fi system than it is a test of the test object itself

Both when listening and measuring one can subconsciously seek a result , my impression is that most who arrange blind tests do so to prove that there is no sound difference , they have a skepticism that needs to be confirmed .

Some do it to prove that theory and measurement is the whole truth , others are angry about prices and marketing , the starting point for both is often that all high-end manufacturers are fraudsters selling snake oil .

An example of this zeal to prove there is no difference is to record the sound difference from cables on a file .
All engineers know that properly constructed cables should not affect the sound signal.
Which theory , simulation and measurement confirm, and of course no difference is heard between the two identical files.
Yet they use "non-cable believers" that as an argument.

Objectivists may not realize that "cable believers" have been aware of this dilemma, this conundrum for more than 30 years.
That was the reason I wrote my first post in this thread.

Here Sean Olive proves that the placebo effect exists, and that it applies to both subjectivists and objectivists, must be a truth.
https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html
I think many so called serious blind tests have this focus point, which has absolutely nothing to do with hifi but more about either finding the lowest common denominator or finding human weaknesses that we are all proven about and should try to avoid , by not using blind tests but instead listening objectively with a clear reference.
I am 100% sure that I would not have achieved my reproduction with blindtests , A reproduction I for large parts can't put on formula, large parts of the result is due to listening experience and the desire to try things that are not necessarily scientifically documented.

Serious experienced hifi enthusiasts are grown up people who are not lured/seduced by high polished aluminium ,high prices ,nice design and knows brands.
As I said blind testing is not used by serious hifi developers , it is about adding and building on a listening impression , it is not the difference that matters , it is what the difference points towards that is important .There is absolutely no need to confuse this already difficult process with blind testing.

In recent times I have only seen one scientifically person who took hifi seriously and that was Kunchur.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/cables-can-be-measured.36655/
Unfortunately he failed by testing two topologies singleended and balanced against each other instead of two cables. And was rightly heavily criticised, but I liked his approach which was positive hifi rather than anti hifi.

He has promised to correct the error in a new article, I am waiting patiently, but whatever the outcome I am sure no one will change their mind, neither the "non cable believers" nor the believers.
If there is a result, I am also pretty sure it will not be a technical proof, which is what I am looking for and what all technicians looking for.

tl;dfr
never mind the science, feel the woo.

 

[Killingbeans]

my impression is that most who arrange blind tests do so to prove that there is no sound difference , they have a skepticism that needs to be confirmed .

I've got the opposite impression. I hardly ever see people going through blind tests in order to confirm their skepticism.

Most stories I've seen describe how a person either stumbles upon a clear indication of having been fooled by their own mind, or agrees reluctantly to set up a blind test just to disprove the silly notion of no audible difference. It always results in a feeling of embarrassment, and only gives progress when the person has enough humility to let reality sink in. Otherwise they jump directly to denial and grab any excuse they can to keep the delusion going.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I've participated in several blind tests for fun and have a few reports, but I'm 110% sure they don't meet your requirements for a blind test, for one thing they haven't been double-blind tests.
But my participation in these has helped confirm that there are sound differences in cables , components and hifi equipment in general

Blind tests are, in my opinion, often more a test of the listener's skills and the quality of the room and the hi-fi system than it is a test of the test object itself

Both when listening and measuring one can subconsciously seek a result , my impression is that most who arrange blind tests do so to prove that there is no sound difference , they have a skepticism that needs to be confirmed .

Some do it to prove that theory and measurement is the whole truth , others are angry about prices and marketing , the starting point for both is often that all high-end manufacturers are fraudsters selling snake oil .

An example of this zeal to prove there is no difference is to record the sound difference from cables on a file .
All engineers know that properly constructed cables should not affect the sound signal.
Which theory , simulation and measurement confirm, and of course no difference is heard between the two identical files.
Yet they use "non-cable believers" that as an argument.

Objectivists may not realize that "cable believers" have been aware of this dilemma, this conundrum for more than 30 years.
That was the reason I wrote my first post in this thread.

Here Sean Olive proves that the placebo effect exists, and that it applies to both subjectivists and objectivists, must be a truth.
https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html
I think many so called serious blind tests have this focus point, which has absolutely nothing to do with hifi but more about either finding the lowest common denominator or finding human weaknesses that we are all proven about and should try to avoid , by not using blind tests but instead listening objectively with a clear reference.
I am 100% sure that I would not have achieved my reproduction with blindtests , A reproduction I for large parts can't put on formula, large parts of the result is due to listening experience and the desire to try things that are not necessarily scientifically documented.

Serious experienced hifi enthusiasts are grown up people who are not lured/seduced by high polished aluminium ,high prices ,nice design and knows brands.
As I said blind testing is not used by serious hifi developers , it is about adding and building on a listening impression , it is not the difference that matters , it is what the difference points towards that is important .There is absolutely no need to confuse this already difficult process with blind testing.

In recent times I have only seen one scientifically person who took hifi seriously and that was Kunchur.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/cables-can-be-measured.36655/
Unfortunately he failed by testing two topologies singleended and balanced against each other instead of two cables. And was rightly heavily criticised, but I liked his approach which was positive hifi rather than anti hifi.

He has promised to correct the error in a new article, I am waiting patiently, but whatever the outcome I am sure no one will change their mind, neither the "non cable believers" nor the believers.
If there is a result, I am also pretty sure it will not be a technical proof, which is what I am looking for and what all technicians looking for.

Congratulations!

I think you included all the typical cliches, misconceptions and lame excuses in one post.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Congratulations!

I think you included all the typical cliches, misconceptions and lame excuses in one post.

He missed the partner/wife in the kitchen … and veils haven’t been lifted yet either. But maybe he spares those killer arguments for the next go around. ;-)

 

[voodooless]

Finally! A convert! To prove your loyalty, you must immediately go out and acquire the most expensive AC power cord you can’t afford, install cable risers and multiple Ethernet reclockers. Then keep posting about your amazing, veil-lifting experience with these tweaks on all audio forums. Others also need to be converted, after all.

Yeah, okay… So, I’m back from the store. I’m flat broke now, but I do have this massive hose pipe of an AC cord now . This really isn’t how I imagined it all to be…How am I now supposed to get my veils lifted? I have no money left even for cable lifters… how about all the other stuff the store quoted me that I would need for ultimate synergy? There is just no way to get to audio Nirvana in my lifetime

So I decided to bring back the power cord and convert my name back to Voodooless. Turns out this magic thing just isn’t for me…

 

[Shadrach]

I've participated in several blind tests for fun and have a few reports, but I'm 110% sure they don't meet your requirements for a blind test, for one thing they haven't been double-blind tests.
But my participation in these has helped confirm that there are sound differences in cables , components and hifi equipment in general

Blind tests are, in my opinion, often more a test of the listener's skills and the quality of the room and the hi-fi system than it is a test of the test object itself

Both when listening and measuring one can subconsciously seek a result , my impression is that most who arrange blind tests do so to prove that there is no sound difference , they have a skepticism that needs to be confirmed .

Some do it to prove that theory and measurement is the whole truth , others are angry about prices and marketing , the starting point for both is often that all high-end manufacturers are fraudsters selling snake oil .

An example of this zeal to prove there is no difference is to record the sound difference from cables on a file .
All engineers know that properly constructed cables should not affect the sound signal.
Which theory , simulation and measurement confirm, and of course no difference is heard between the two identical files.
Yet they use "non-cable believers" that as an argument.

Objectivists may not realize that "cable believers" have been aware of this dilemma, this conundrum for more than 30 years.
That was the reason I wrote my first post in this thread.

Here Sean Olive proves that the placebo effect exists, and that it applies to both subjectivists and objectivists, must be a truth.
https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html
I think many so called serious blind tests have this focus point, which has absolutely nothing to do with hifi but more about either finding the lowest common denominator or finding human weaknesses that we are all proven about and should try to avoid , by not using blind tests but instead listening objectively with a clear reference.
I am 100% sure that I would not have achieved my reproduction with blindtests , A reproduction I for large parts can't put on formula, large parts of the result is due to listening experience and the desire to try things that are not necessarily scientifically documented.

Serious experienced hifi enthusiasts are grown up people who are not lured/seduced by high polished aluminium ,high prices ,nice design and knows brands.
As I said blind testing is not used by serious hifi developers , it is about adding and building on a listening impression , it is not the difference that matters , it is what the difference points towards that is important .There is absolutely no need to confuse this already difficult process with blind testing.

In recent times I have only seen one scientifically person who took hifi seriously and that was Kunchur.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/cables-can-be-measured.36655/
Unfortunately he failed by testing two topologies singleended and balanced against each other instead of two cables. And was rightly heavily criticised, but I liked his approach which was positive hifi rather than anti hifi.

He has promised to correct the error in a new article, I am waiting patiently, but whatever the outcome I am sure no one will change their mind, neither the "non cable believers" nor the believers.
If there is a result, I am also pretty sure it will not be a technical proof, which is what I am looking for and what all technicians looking for.

I don't know what happens to peoples brains in these debates. If the differences, if any exist, are so small that one needs 30 years of training and a particular set up to hear them then if they exist they are vanishingly small. Given most of us are not trained listeners and listen to the music rather than the equipment, such small differences, should they exist, are not worth bothering about. If I have and others have problems telling a 320 CBR file form a Redbook file then being able to hear a difference in cables that can't even be measured seems highly unlikely.

 

[tuga]

The wine analogy is always applied (to audio) incorrectly.

The wine is the music. Not the gear. The analogy to the gear is the bottle and glass. If they are dirty they contaminate the wine.

If the wine is music, gear is the glass:

 

[Blumlein 88]

He missed the partner/wife in the kitchen … and veils haven’t been lifted yet either. But maybe he spares those killer arguments for the next go around. ;-)

You are right, I forgot about those.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

You are right, I forgot about those.

Happens to the best

 

[Mart68]

I could cite countless examples of this approach not being consistent with reality.
But will just mention one where three guys test class D the new Hypex Purifi and ICEpower

Live Test - 3 Times Next Gen Class D - Hypex - Purifi - ICEpower

YES! The first live stream of this year! And we're going to make it another great one! This time: 3 x NEXT GEN class D. The latest Hypex Nilai, the latest ge...

www.youtube.com

The Hypex and Purifi measure very similarly, and many of the measurements are below audible, yet the three hear crucial differences in sound, depending on music selection among other things.
Yes, no blind tests etc, there are actually people who can profitably judge hifi without blind tests and achieve progress and correct ratings. Believe it or not
.

 

[VQR]

Here Sean Olive proves that the placebo effect exists, and that it applies to both subjectivists and objectivists, must be a truth.
https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html
I think many so called serious blind tests have this focus point, which has absolutely nothing to do with hifi but more about either finding the lowest common denominator or finding human weaknesses that we are all proven about and should try to avoid , by not using blind tests but instead listening objectively with a clear reference.
I am 100% sure that I would not have achieved my reproduction with blindtests , A reproduction I for large parts can't put on formula, large parts of the result is due to listening experience and the desire to try things that are not necessarily scientifically documented.

Serious experienced hifi enthusiasts are grown up people who are not lured/seduced by high polished aluminium ,high prices ,nice design and knows brands.
As I said blind testing is not used by serious hifi developers , it is about adding and building on a listening impression , it is not the difference that matters , it is what the difference points towards that is important .There is absolutely no need to confuse this already difficult process with blind testing.

I don't think you got the point of the article:

"In summary, the sighted and blind loudspeaker listening tests in this study produced significantly different sound quality ratings. The psychological biases in the sighted tests were sufficiently strong that listeners were largely unresponsive to real changes in sound quality caused by acoustical interactions between the loudspeaker, its position in the room, and the program material. In other words, if you want to obtain an accurate and reliable measure of how the audio product truly sounds, the listening test must be done blind."

Most objectivists will admit they can be overcome by placebo. That's why many advocate that, if you find an unexplained or contradictory audio phenomenon, you ought to double blind test. Even a simple, single blind test with basic volume matchup often can suffice to tease out most placebo.

When not explained by measurenents, the claims of superiority of cables, DAC's, and amps virtually vanish in blind testing for a reason. When sighted, you get bold claims of 'compressed sound,' 'less tight bass,' 'shrill highs,' things that ought to be easy to tell blind for even a more than casual listener. Done blind? They vanish! You surely can see why people were intrigued to hear details of your blind testing.

Blind tests obviously must test the listener. If the testee is given enough chance to evaluate the system sighted, they can give their impressions of any differences so they may be noted. If these differences cease to be when unsighted, it's only natural to suppose the testee only perceived from placebo. I don't see why you'd condemn blind tests for doing what research has shown them to do.

 

[IAtaman]

Unfortunately no, I have a lot of knowledge and not least a lot of listening experience with hi-fi equipment that I have built from scratch.
Have worked a lot with measuring instruments , there is a commonality between this and audio but also big differences, the biggest in my opinion is that not everything can be measured/simulated/theoretically proven and it is therefore left to the ear and brain to "measure"

I am quite curious, could you please explain how does that process work, that is, there are qualities in audio that can not be measured but can only be sensed by human ears and brains?

 

[IAtaman]

Serious experienced hifi enthusiasts are grown up people who are not lured/seduced by high polished aluminium ,high prices ,nice design and knows brands.

It is becoming exceeding hard to see if you are saying anything of value when it is entangled with naive BS like this honestly..

 

[Nickerz]

Wrote in another thread : Something. Definately not everything.

 

[Ken1951]

Finally! A convert! To prove your loyalty, you must immediately go out and acquire the most expensive AC power cord you can’t afford, install cable risers and multiple Ethernet reclockers. Then keep posting about your amazing, veil-lifting experience with these tweaks on all audio forums. Others also need to be converted, after all.

Don't forget the heavy weights to place on top of every piece of equipment - including your speakers! Gots to have them too to get all them veils lifted way up there!

 

[Axo1989]

He missed the partner/wife in the kitchen … and veils haven’t been lifted yet either.

There's usually an off-stage power struggle between said partner and Salome. Depending how that pans out veils are either going on or coming off.

 

[Axo1989]

Don't forget the heavy weights to place on top of every piece of equipment - including your speakers! Gots to have them too to get all them veils lifted way up there!

These are adorable:

Spoiler: mass mice

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I am quite curious, could you please explain how does that process work, that is, there are qualities in audio that can not be measured but can only be sensed by human ears and brains?

If we don't measure everything we can't explain everything.
Tell me, do we measure everything?