Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Galliardist]

I have auditioned the benchmark ahb2 recently against the marantz pm10 and even though the benchmark measures better the marantz sounds better. My benchmark ahb2 is up for sale. There is more detail revealed by the marantz with a bigger sound stage and better separation between instruments. What surprised me the most about the benchmark is how ‘stunted’ or ‘cut off’ the very low frequencies are expressed that the marantz does much better on. Stronger tight punch on low frequencies by marantz. Another person auditioned with me and we drew both the same conclusions.

We both concluded that measurements are of lesser importance and sound listening is much more important.

We don’t know enough about what needs to be measured to draw valuable enough conclusions from that alone. Lesson learnt

You tested a power amp against an integrated amp. You also tested a less powerful amp (assuming the AHB2 was used in stereo mode) against a more powerful amp.
So you compared apples to oranges, quite apart from, no doubt, not level matching and checking impedence, gain and voltage levels for connections. You don't mention source or speakers used. If gain on whatever you used with the Benchmark was too low, and the speakers used required lots of power to drive the bass (where more power is needed) adequately, you would get precisely this result. We don't even need to ask for a blind level matched test if one of your options is a mismatch. Any system has to be properly matched and with components used within their performance envelope.

For goodness' sake, test properly and give full details of the test.

 

[Newman]

this assume everything you are listening to, all the time, is perfectly mastered and lossless delivery though. Sometimes transparency isn't a good thing with lower quality recordings.

The correct way to deal with something so variable:-

 

[peng]

What if it measures well, but you don't like the sound Keith?

Assuming you are not affected by knowing the device price, look, and the marketing info, and that the measurements are quite detailed, not just a single point SINAD, you probably like something that measures with no flat frequency response, distortions higher than the generally accepted threshold of audibility etc. In that case you have the option to try and get something like you may like. Nothing wrong with that, it is like distilled water may have a neutral taste, but one may not like it, and preferred certain juice. Different people may prefer different kind of juice but probably more people do not prefer water that lacks any kind of taste, then just pure water. The fact remains that we have the means to measure, and conclude that the sampled drink is water, or some kind of a juice.

 

[peng]

If people can't, or just won't think logically, like @ThELiZ said in his post, they are going to keep posting like some of them have been doing. Such posts, have large enough numbers accumulated on the internet and have already created the all powerful hearsay, and that in turn have resulted in more such posts, many of the posters are genuinely convinced they heard what they heard. If one such post could result in 10 responses, I can see this 599 page thread would become 5999, and keep going, until the end of ASR, if that day would come. I understand why our mods has been moving such posts here lol... I also would attribute some of such hearsay, or posts to the marketing info by even reputable manufacturers such as Marantz. They actually have more influence, as they know how to plant the seed in their potential customers mind, remember the slew rate, damping factor kind of hypes, so the semi informed (technically) hobbyist would have reasons to believe and then hear what they expect to hear.

 

[DonR]

this assume everything you are listening to, all the time, is perfectly mastered and lossless delivery though. Sometimes transparency isn't a good thing with lower quality recordings.

Without introducing massive distortion, it would be impossible to improve the mistakes in the source material unilaterally since these are not uniform. There is no "cure all" for such circumstances. The best one can do is start with transparency and alter it to suit each recording according to its flaws

 

[Jim Taylor]

For instance, you always hear some bollocks about Naim amps having PRaT. If you can’t measure PrAT (which they seem to say you can’t), how the hell does the designer know which component or design to utilise to insert said PrAT?

Makes no sense to me

There are 2 things a person needs to know:

1) The scientific principles behind the operation of transducers and electronic circuits. This tells you what the devices can do and what they can't do. A person doesn't need to have an EE degree, just command of the basics.

2) A person needs to have insight into the willingness of advertisers to use hyperbole and pseudo-science to promote their products, and the considerable leeway of laws allowing them to do that.

The use of #1 will give you useful insight into #2. In the case of PRaT, the designer doesn't need to know which components contribute to PRaT, because PRaT doesn't exist. It's simply b.s. that is advantageous advertising to the manufacturer.

As far as making sense ... there is a tremendous amount of information in this hobby, circulated by a great number of people, that makes no sense. That is one of the reasons that Amir founded this site.

Jim

 

[Theta]

I prefer myTopping D-10s (99€) to my RME Adi-2 Dac (1250€); Have I become some sort of delussionary subjectivist?

 

[Jimbob54]

I'll bite. Prefer why?

 

[Purité Audio]

Shouldn’t be any difference between the two, the menu selection takes a bit of getting used to on the RME of course.
fyi only one ‘s’ in delusions.

Keith

 

[Matt_Holland]

I prefer myTopping D-10s (99€) to my RME Adi-2 Dac (1250€); Have I become some sort of delussionary subjectivist?

Prefer the value for money or the sound?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Just another Topping fan boy.

 

[Theta]

Thank you for biting, It seems clearer and more dynamic in my setup using a line level preamp instead of the RME preamp section even without dsp correction or tone control.

 

[Theta]

Prefer the value for money or the sound?

Definitly the sound, I don't plan on selling the RME, I will be using it in a secondary less resolving system.

 

[Jimbob54]

Thank you for biting, It seems clearer and more dynamic in my setup using a line level preamp instead of the RME preamp section even without dsp correction or tone control.

And if you set the RME to +13 ref level, -4.5dB on the volume knob and then into your line level pre amp? (so the output level is roughly the same as the D10s) ?

 

[Purité Audio]

Definitly the sound, I don't plan on selling the RME, I will be using it in a secondary less resolving system.

I always enjoy that phrase ‘less resolving’ sock over the tweeters?
Keith

 

[Theta]

I always enjoy that phrase ‘less resolving’ sock over the tweeters?
Keith

Socks only on my feet. I refer to my less resolving system only because the speakers in that system have a passive crossover.

 

[FrantzM]

Well ..

The OP admitted delusions ... Nothing to add, comment or say: OP already knows what ailing them ...


Peace.

 

[Theta]

So you prefer the sound from one of two completely different systems ?

I prefer the taste of hand sliced wheat bread over factory sliced Wonder bread.

Me too.

 

[MattHooper]

Some on the Steve Hoffman forum seem to be discerning between different turntable cables, via ABX tests.

Thoughts?

You think you can hear TT cable differences? Vote here! Mogami Shootout!

The Mogami Cable Thread has given me some interesting advice and learnings. Some strong beliefs in that thread, so I wanted to tease out the truth...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

 

[Blumlein 88]

Some on the Steve Hoffman forum seem to be discerning between different turntable cables, via ABX tests.

Thoughts?

You think you can hear TT cable differences? Vote here! Mogami Shootout!

The Mogami Cable Thread has given me some interesting advice and learnings. Some strong beliefs in that thread, so I wanted to tease out the truth...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

Really you should avoid Hoffman forums. It is like drinking from a polluted lake.

My guess would be if nothing else speed variations from run to run. I bet they could blind detect instance A, B and C even if no changes were made. In fact in this case, including one of the cables recorded two different times as a choice would have been a good idea. So are they detecting this blind? I don't doubt you could. Is it because the cables sound different? Probably not. Along with maybe the different cable construction's capacitance effects the cartridge frequency response.

I didn't delve into the details much, as it is a waste of time with those forums. In full disclosure I loath Steve, his forum and his moderators and with good reasons.