Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Pdxwayne]

Of course if 2 things measure differently they could sound audibly different. lol. If one thing is sitting at 90db spl and the other is 40db spl, they will sound easily distinct from one another. If one thing has a 5db bulge between 4 and 12khz and the other doesn't, they will sound different. Most dacs don't have very substantial differences at all, and only a very bad one would be audibly different from a good one. But whatever, you win! lol...yes, 2 things that measure differently from one another might sound audibly different.

Finally, we agree.
: P

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Yes, we agree that 2 things that measure the same won't have any audible differences, no matter the cost.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Yes, we agree that 2 things that measure the same won't have any audible differences, no matter the cost.

A bit generic, but I agree with you up to a certain point....

Still at least need to make sure when testing:
*Match voltage
*Match filter
*Match channel balance

 

[Roland]

Presumably measurements and their importance, particularly sinad, should be taken in the context of 50dB background noise in the average sitting room?

 

[solderdude]

Presumably measurements and their importance, particularly sinad, should be taken in the context of 50dB background noise in the average sitting room?

No. The 50dB you are talking about is the combined energy in the entire measured band. This can be much lower depending on the frequency band. In that band distortion should be low.

 

[storing]

50dB background noise

Depends whether that dBSPL or A or C or u or nothing

 

[Bernard23]

Apologies for not reading through all 98 pages, but thinking about Amir's OP, something that I'm curious about is the validation of the test results, i.e. what equipment is used, LoD's, how is it calibrated, so are the results traceable, and lastly repeatability. I know Amir makes an uncertainty calculation, but this will be high for some hardware, e.g. headphones. I'm trying to generate a PEQ curve for a pair of phones, and finding a reliable data source is almost impossible. Its seem that Crinacle, Oratory_1990 are the most useful as the instruments they use are the same or comply with the approach used by Sean Olive, if only because they use the same hardware, rather than comply to an independent published standard. I'm presuming that his paper is the closest to a standard method?

 

[Brierlox]

I signed up for this forum specifically because of Amirm's reviews of power conditioners, cables, regernators and more that are brandished as snake oil only for audiofools. He seems to have a dim view of just about everything. Anyhoo.

In the same way there are fools easily parted with money for snake oil, there are also fools who have themselves convinced they can't hear any difference or that the cable for the electric lawn mower is as good as the $2k cable. Their through gritted teeth A/B tests forced them to go back to piss poor unshielded conductors mounted to piss poor plugs made of piss poor metal conductors like brass, copper alloy, phosphor bronze. I believe there's a happy in between. There's a great thread over on Audioasylum from an engineer who knows in his head burning in cables, presence, air, lower sound floor all mean rubbish, but he professes he can "hear" differences despite his misgivings.

And this is the point. The science may point out there is no difference in the characteristics of the electrical signal whether it passes through a filter or not, but to say the "sound" is unaffected is, well, nonsense. Pass one thing through another and it cant hep but be affected despite what a graph will tell you. I read a review by some Italian dude who pointed out that all conditioners and tweaks are snake oil. All his reviews should be instantly dismissed on the basis he is just prejudiced. Its a growing fashion.

To say that the signal passing through my silver IC is exactly the same as the signal going through my copper IC or silver plated one is exactly right. Using the science to debunk the validity of the investment in the higher end product is total rubbish. The difference in the presentation of a pure silver IC vs the presentation of pure copper is a figment of my imagination. As for the screams from my turntable when using an unbalanced, unscreened cable, total nonsense. What was I thinking when investing in a heavily screened cable that eliminated amplifier/speaker buzz?

To those who review 10 out of 10 products and say they are all rubbish, I say your opinions are deeply flawed and should be avoided as equally as those who pawn penny products for thousands.

Theres a happy medium. Perhaps try better to find it. Live a little.

 

[rdenney]

Sometimes, sarcasm doesn’t play well. It’s a power tool, and those sometimes go astray. I’m not sure I really understand what you are saying.

A buzz from a poorly shielded cable isn’t what golden-ears are talking about. They don’t say, “I had a noise from a nearby poorly shielded transformer and a well-shielded cable fixed it.” Of course, that can be measured and is the sort of thing any might do.

They say, “I only thought I had heard the details before using this cable, and using it is like lifting a veil. I feel like I’m really hearing the music for the first time. Those idiots over at ASR can’t measure it, but I use my ears.”

Okay, so let’s test those ears and do a blind comparison to make sure the perception is only based on the ears. “No! I know what I hear!”

Sigh.

Rick “if you really read Amir’s reviews, you’d find he is cheerfully positive about things that measure well, at all price points, but those results don’t require debunking” Denney

 

[Ken1951]

I signed up for this forum specifically because of Amirm's reviews of power conditioners, cables, regernators and more that are brandished as snake oil only for audiofools. He seems to have a dim view of just about everything. Anyhoo.

In the same way there are fools easily parted with money for snake oil, there are also fools who have themselves convinced they can't hear any difference or that the cable for the electric lawn mower is as good as the $2k cable. Their through gritted teeth A/B tests forced them to go back to piss poor unshielded conductors mounted to piss poor plugs made of piss poor metal conductors like brass, copper alloy, phosphor bronze. I believe there's a happy in between. There's a great thread over on Audioasylum from an engineer who knows in his head burning in cables, presence, air, lower sound floor all mean rubbish, but he professes he can "hear" differences despite his misgivings.

And this is the point. The science may point out there is no difference in the characteristics of the electrical signal whether it passes through a filter or not, but to say the "sound" is unaffected is, well, nonsense. Pass one thing through another and it cant hep but be affected despite what a graph will tell you. I read a review by some Italian dude who pointed out that all conditioners and tweaks are snake oil. All his reviews should be instantly dismissed on the basis he is just prejudiced. Its a growing fashion.

To say that the signal passing through my silver IC is exactly the same as the signal going through my copper IC or silver plated one is exactly right. Using the science to debunk the validity of the investment in the higher end product is total rubbish. The difference in the presentation of a pure silver IC vs the presentation of pure copper is a figment of my imagination. As for the screams from my turntable when using an unbalanced, unscreened cable, total nonsense. What was I thinking when investing in a heavily screened cable that eliminated amplifier/speaker buzz?

To those who review 10 out of 10 products and say they are all rubbish, I say your opinions are deeply flawed and should be avoided as equally as those who pawn penny products for thousands.

Theres a happy medium. Perhaps try better to find it. Live a little.

 

[BDWoody]

there are also fools who have themselves convinced they can't hear any difference or that the cable for the electric lawn mower is as good as the $2k cable. Their through gritted teeth A/B tests forced them to go back to piss poor unshielded conductors mounted to piss poor plugs made of piss poor metal conductors like brass, copper alloy, phosphor bronze.

So, if folks listen very carefully, and can't hear a difference, why wouldn't the fool be the one who keeps the $2k cable?

Are you skeptical of any claims, about anything?

Not sure who feels forced...the person who proved to himself it didn't make a damn bit of difference, or the one who feels it MUST make a difference...because...silver...and all the other unproven golden ears agree, not to mention every one of their wives in each of their kitchens.

 

[Sam Ash]

Don't forget the fact that the ears, just like the eyes, are highly adaptive and that needs to be taken into consideration. Hence, starting-off with measurements forms a good foundation and that can then be supplemented with actual listening tests. That is exactly what Amir does, I really enjoyed his review of the Genelec 8361A. Scientific yet practical and down to earth. @amirm - it would be nice to have a separate section that explains how to correctly interpret the measurements that you take and indicate.

 

[Frgirard]

Don't forget the fact that the ears, just like the eyes, are highly adaptive and that needs to be taken into consideration. Hence, starting-off with measurements forms a good foundation and that can then be supplemented with actual listening tests. That is exactly what Amir does, I really enjoyed his review of the Genelec 8361A. Scientific yet practical and down to earth. @amirm - it would be nice to have a separate section that explains how to correctly interpret the measurements that you take and indicate.

Psychology are not science.

 

[tmtomh]

Psychology are not science.

Nonsense. It's not the same as, say, physics, but that doesn't mean it's not a science.

 

[maverickronin]

Psychology are not science.

Nonsense. It's not the same as, say, physics, but that doesn't mean it's not a science.

Psychology is just a "soft" science.

My definition of a soft science is one in which all the definitive experiments are disallowed on ethical grounds.

 

[Killingbeans]

Pass one thing through another and it cant hep but be affected despite what a graph will tell you.

Your body also can't help but be affected by the ~100 trillion neutrinos that pass straight through it every second. But the interaction is so rare, that it's practically non-existent (to put it mildly). Same thing with audio. Everything has an impact, but the only thing that matters is whether the contribution in question, or even all the contributions added up, gives anyhing that's remotely audible. That's what the graph tells you.

 

[Pascal971]

Hello everyone, I just wanted to say that the measurements of the devices are good but that's not everything! It's not the devices that offer the best measurements or numbers that are the most musical! I learned it the hard way after 35 years of passion for home hifi !

 

[Killingbeans]

If my playback system was musical, I'd suspect something having serious resonance or acting like a plate reverb.

Preference is something I absolutely understand. But a Hi-Fi system, that somehow adds a special layer that makes everything better for anyone and everyone, is something I have a very hard time wrapping my head around.

 

[Ken1951]

Hello everyone, I just wanted to say that the measurements of the devices are good but that's not everything! It's not the devices that offer the best measurements or numbers that are the most musical! I learned it the hard way after 35 years of passion for home hifi !

 

[Spkrdctr]

Why is the EBS system the best? because it is built to interface with sound, based on the same physical rules that give rise to sound, including those we may not know.

I am not clear on what you are saying.