Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Deleted member 49736]

That's the second time you envision an unrealistic and unnecessary objective to support your beliefs. When engineers design a mile long bridge they also don't have a single mathematical formula, nor do they have all factors in mind simultaneously. They design and measure all sub components and then put all the pieces together. And rest assure they will measure the end result, even when normal users think it looks fine.

This example is absolutely ridiculous. I just looked it up, the first bridge was erected around 850 B.C. Bridge building has the benefit of 2800 years of data collection. There is absolutely an accepted set of scientific principles that are used to engineer every bridge on earth. The physics of gravity are constant. Mankind has a very strong understanding of gravity.

Audio products are more like submarines. You can run all the tests you want, but you’re not going to figure out the maximum depth the sub can handle before imploding until it implodes, sinks and kills the crew. The US Navy has done it twice.

This statement confirms we have some understanding of what performance level is required to avoid issues.

Yes, clearly I’m not arguing that measurements are irrelevant and useless. They serve a purpose, but measurements do not guarantee a system will ultimately perform better or worse in a system of components. Some people can hear below 10% THD, but very few. If you can’t hear the difference, it is irrelevant.

 

[Geert]

There is absolutely an accepted set of scientific principles that are used to engineer every bridge on earth.

The same goes for electronics. Electronic engineering is applied science, not trail and error.

Audio products are more like submarines. You can run all the tests you want, but you’re not going to figure out the maximum depth the sub can handle before imploding until it implodes, sinks and kills the crew.

Talking about stupid examples... So we don't know how to design audio equipment because the US navy sunk 2 subs

 

[Deleted member 48726]

This example is absolutely ridiculous. I just looked it up, the first bridge was erected around 850 B.C. Bridge building has the benefit of 2800 years of data collection. There is absolutely an accepted set of scientific principles that are used to engineer every bridge on earth. The physics of gravity are constant. Mankind has a very strong understanding of gravity.

Audio products are more like submarines. You can run all the tests you want, but you’re not going to figure out the maximum depth the sub can handle before imploding until it implodes, sinks and kills the crew. The US Navy has done it twice.



Yes, clearly I’m not arguing that measurements are irrelevant and useless. They serve a purpose, but measurements do not guarantee a system will ultimately perform better or worse in a system of components. Some people can hear below 10% THD, but very few. If you can’t hear the difference, it is irrelevant.

I am sorry. But this is just ridiculous examples. We also have a very precise understanding of hydraulic pressure and how to build pressure vessels, just as well as tensile strength. I can easily flip your argument 180 ° and say that bridges still collapse till this day. These arguments can not be used pro / con in discussing audio quality perception.

 

[Deleted member 49736]

The same goes for electronics. Electronic engineering is applied science, not trail and error.

Again, it’s clear that measurements are a useful tool for engineers. The question is does that matter in a stereo system. The answer is no.

Talking about stupid examples... So we don't know how to design audio equipment because the US navy sunk 2 subs

Again, the question is not about engineering, it’s about listening. Ask any audio engineer to verbally explain everything they know about audio, they won’t be able to.

 

[Deleted member 49736]

Believing you can hear the difference between two devices that both measure in the top 10% of audio gear is equally as ignorant as believing there is an invisible god in the sky that determines everything.

 

[Jimster480]

People who are admitted to the hospital via the emergency room and leave the hospital healthy are literally living proof to the contrary. They don’t just give PhD’s to anyone who can show up to class and turn in homework on time.

I’m sorry you were the kid that had to carry the group project. I was also that kid. It sounds like as an adult you’re in an industry full of non-professional people. In my world, my colleagues are dependable and -dare I say it- inspiring.

My point was simply that D-K is misunderstood by the masses, because they are victims of it.

Medical error is the #2 cause of death in America. It seems that the medical industry kills just as many as it saves today. Also the # of post surgery and post admittance injuries are at an all time high. Suggesting that our education system is indeed a joke and trusting your life to any of these people is a very risky proposition.
Other countries without such "standards" are actually doing better than the USA. Showing that everything we have instituted has made us go backwards.
We have the highest medical costs and the lowest life expectancy of any developed nation. Highest number of medicated people, highest percentage of SIDS, highest percentage of autism, highest percentage of un-necessary medical procedures.
Literally everything about US academia is a joke today. Kids are graduating high school without being able to do math or read... And they are graduating with high level degrees without many more skills.... it shows.

This is going far too off topic though. The point is to be good at what you do and take pride in your work. The rest doesn't really matter and no one's feelings change objective fact.

 

[Geert]

Suggesting that our education system is indeed a joke and trusting your life to any of these people is a very risky proposition.

The same happens in other countries. The principle that education should be accessible to everyone has shifted towards everyone should be able to get any degree they want.

In Belgium that issue has been regonized and will be remediated.

 

[Jimster480]

The same happens in other countries. The principle that education should be accessible to everyone has shifted towards everyone should be able to get any degree they want.

In Belgium that issue has been regonized and will be remediated.

It has become a real problem indeed. This is why today it is impossible to respect degrees the way that you could 20 years ago.
When I was a kid there were very few people with high-level degrees who were ignorant or downright stupid. Usually having a PhD or even a master's degree meant that you had to have some level of intelligence to be able to complete such a degree. This was especially true of more complex fields.

Today you don't have to be intelligent at all and you can still graduate with basically whatever degree you wish. You just need to pay the money and waste the time in school.
Schools actually prefer that you are not so intelligent so that they can make more money off of You by forcing you to repeat classes and take other bonus supplementary classes that they get to Bill handsomely for.
This is a complete reversal of the education system as it once was.

 

[sofrep811]

The measurements are absolutely needed to validate how audio is presented to the listener. However, like food being reviewed, the reviewer wants to know ingredients, how it’s cooked, etc.…but the end result is the flavor and the flavor is subjective.

Do most devises have a flavor that can’t be measured, right? A flavor or smell to the ears? I think so in a subjective way. I’ve experienced it with various components in my lifetime.

Could this be why Amir prefer MQA? (If he's changed, my bad, not known now)

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Believing you can hear the difference between two devices that both measure in the top 10% of audio gear is equally as ignorant as believing there is an invisible god in the sky that determines everything.

Agreed. But measurements can be a great determining factor when deciding what gives you the best value for the money you want to spend. It can also be an indicator of the quality of the components and the design choices and chosen compromises of the device.
I always seach for the best quality for the money, maybe money is not a factor for doctor philosophiaes..?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Again, it’s clear that measurements are a useful tool for engineers. The question is does that matter in a stereo system. The answer is no.

Well, I would like to avoid speakers with crazy impedance dips and resonance.

I also don't like to purchase an amplifier which drops off below 60 Hz and over 10 kHz. I would also like to know the noise floor because I may have speakers with 102 dB sensitivity.
Does it deliver the advertised power?

Does the expensive audiophile DAC live up to its promise of being able to deliver super high definition or is it all lies?

All can be measured.

 

[skraz]

New to this forum (well reasonably anyway)

I prefer to read and learn rather than give opinions, and that meant that i just wasted many hours on this bloody thread (170 pages), and wasted literally 0 hours reading the entirety of a call for Humo(u)r (487 pages).

This entire thread was new people arguing the same things and then refusing to do blind tests to test those things.

Either way, it's become fairly obvious from my small amount of reading here that i had a lot of misconceptions about audio before deciding to take the plunge.
I joined this forum originally to check to see if some products i had my eye on for my computer setup were a good choice, and thankfully changed what i bought based on what i read here (ended up with a smsl 500 mk2 with dt 1990 pros). I was about to spend about 4 times as much for a much worse setup.

It seems obvious to me from the reading here that the science is very well figured out by this point and id personally like to thank people like amir and woody from the posts ive read that saved me money.

my 2 cents.

 

[fpitas]

This entire thread was new people arguing the same things and then refusing to do blind tests to test those things.


It seems obvious to me from the reading here that the science is very well figured out by this point and id personally like to thank people like amir and woody from the posts ive read that saved me money.

my 2 cents.

Yes; or they posit ridiculous things, usually subjective or nebulous, then complain that no one else will test it for them.

Yes, we are lucky we have some competent people here willing to spend their time not only testing, but getting sniped at afterwards.

 

[dartinbout]

More drivel from Gulden Zounds.

The REAL value of measurements w/ Golden Sound

Listen to this episode from Darko.Audio podcast on Spotify. With Twittering Machines' Michael Lavorgna & Cameron from Golden Sound. PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/johndarko https://www.patreon.com/michaellavorgna https://www.patreon.com/goldensound Show notes...

open.spotify.com

Apparently Darko's opinions about the value of measurements is even worse then his taste in music.

 

[Amir-Hossein]

Seems like so many review threads get challenged with:

1. Measurements are not everything.

2. You all never listen.

3. I trust my ears, not graphs.

4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music.

5. You all must not listen to music at all.

6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear?

7. I have heard your best SINAD gear and they sound terrible. I don't like any of this Chinese stuff.

8. You don't trust your ears. I/we do.

9. All these reviewers/youtubers/audophiles say these amps, DACs, etc. sound different and you say they don't. They can't all be wrong.

10. Surely designers have created certain house sound for each equipment which your measurements don't show.

11. Your measurements are only at one frequency. You need to also measure X, Y and Z like impulse response, slew rate, etc., etc.

12. You guys run a cult here where you only go by measurements and no one is allowed to disagree.

On and on...

I have had to answer these so many times that I thought it is time to stop having them go into every review as they are not product specific. From here on, any such questions should be posted here. Answers will be given in this thread and simply referenced in future challenges in other threads.

@AdamG247 and @BDWoody, please direct any future posts in review threads to here and not allow discussions there.

Thanks. You all are free to discuss this topic, provide answers, argue, whatever, in this thread.

Amir

I am Electronics Engineer from KNTU Iran and I believe in measurements but ...

The Objective vs Subjective debate is an old debate , some notes come to my mind :
In Electronics The true objective modeling of Audio Equipments is not easy, It is so much complex because of non-linearity.
you know in electronics all thing simplified to linear model but in real world all electronic parts (even a resistor) are non-linear.
modeling non-linear parts is very complex and measurements are related to simplified mathematical modeling.
I believe if we hear different sound (for example two digital cable or ...) then we can measure the difference but measuring by simplified model do not give us enough information.
non-linear systems have so much more parameters to measure and it is not easy.
my suggestion is time domain signal measurement/recording.
for example in equal condition (AC quality is very important to be equal and all thing should be equal even the location of loudspeakers) you can put and compare two different cables and play a music at moderate level (speaker is connected and the sound is on) and record the output voltage of power amplifier in time domain and store logged data in computer.
comparing two files will give us an idea about difference of two cables.


if the subject was simple and we had a mathematical modeling of both equipments and human brain then we had answers of many questions but in real world it is very very complex and in my idea we need to trust our ears.

 

[Geert]

my suggestion is time domain signal measurement/recording.
for example in equal condition (AC quality is very important to be equal and all thing should be equal even the location of loudspeakers) you can put and compare two different cables and play a music at moderate level (speaker is connected and the sound is on) and record the output voltage of power amplifier in time domain and store logged data in computer.

There are a lot of reviews, especially the ones for cables, where Amir did a null test using DeltaWave.

 

[dartinbout]

Amir

I am Electronics Engineer from KNTU Iran and I believe in measurements but ...

The Objective vs Subjective debate is an old debate , some notes come to my mind :
In Electronics The true objective modeling of Audio Equipments is not easy, It is so much complex because of non-linearity.
you know in electronics all thing simplified to linear model but in real world all electronic parts (even a resistor) are non-linear.
modeling non-linear parts is very complex and measurements are related to simplified mathematical modeling.
I believe if we hear different sound (for example two digital cable or ...) then we can measure the difference but measuring by simplified model do not give us enough information.
non-linear systems have so much more parameters to measure and it is not easy.
my suggestion is time domain signal measurement/recording.
for example in equal condition (AC quality is very important to be equal and all thing should be equal even the location of loudspeakers) you can put and compare two different cables and play a music at moderate level (speaker is connected and the sound is on) and record the output voltage of power amplifier in time domain and store logged data in computer.
comparing two files will give us an idea about difference of two cables.


if the subject was simple and we had a mathematical modeling of both equipments and human brain then we had answers of many questions but in real world it is very very complex and in my idea we need to trust our ears.

"....And a partridge in a pear tree"

 

[amirm]

The Objective vs Subjective debate is an old debate , some notes come to my mind :
In Electronics The true objective modeling of Audio Equipments is not easy, It is so much complex because of non-linearity.
you know in electronics all thing simplified to linear model but in real world all electronic parts (even a resistor) are non-linear.
modeling non-linear parts is very complex and measurements are related to simplified mathematical modeling.
I believe if we hear different sound (for example two digital cable or ...) then we can measure the difference but measuring by simplified model do not give us enough information.
non-linear systems have so much more parameters to measure and it is not easy.
my suggestion is time domain signal measurement/recording.

I make little attempt at modelling any audio device. Indeed I do the opposite and treat it as a black box -- an input and output. All non-linearities combine to produce the distortions you see in measurements. Same with cables. They either distortion, add noise, or change frequency response or don't. Measurements I perform are amply accurate to find all of these difference to well below threshold of hearing.

Let's remember that these measurements agree with controlled testing when it comes to such things as cables. They simply don't produce a sound of their own when we hide their identity. Our hearing is not one of modeling a device either. It treats the audio device as a black box just as I do.

 

[Amir-Hossein]

Amir
we can not measure all parameters of non linear systems as a black box in real world. If you simplify then yes you can measure but simplified approach will not answer our questions.
I think the only way to have agreement between subjectivist and objectivist is advancing measurement methods.

Music is very very Complex signal and our perception is also very very complex and the audio systems are nonlinear and complex .
What we hear is a very complex process and if you want to look at this subject from your Measurement devices you should advance your methods.

 

[Geert]

What we hear is a very complex process and if you want to look at this from your Measurement devices you should advance your methods.

Where does the information hide that we can't detect via a null test?