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Review and Measurements of Benchmark AHB2 Amp

witwald

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The issue of course is "speaker independent" depends greatly on power output and frequency. The ratings for FR are 1W (2.83V).
View attachment 89462
The output impedance data that I used for my frequency response deviation plot was based on the published data, which shows a strong frequency dependence (as indicated by the excerpt from the table shown above). The response was digitised and then interpolated at the frequency points that I used for the loudspeaker load.
1603620881639.png

Let's see a full rated power frequency response plot into 8/4R and a typical simulated speaker. The old power bandwidth test for amplifiers really was more useful. Basically, the amplifier was run at full rated power at 1KHz and the frequency was swept down to find the -3dB point and up to find the upper -3dB point. That was your half power bandwidth- the frequency range at which your amplifier could deliver half its rated power. Plenty of amplifiers failed these tests, not even being able to cover the audible bandwidth at 50% of rated power. IMO, much more relevant to real world usage than 1W or 4W.
That's a very tough test. I think the low-frequency part would be particularly difficult for many amplifiers. I don't seem to recall that as a specification that was typically provided in the brochures.
 

witwald

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Built during the Japanese Shin Shirasuna ownership of Harman Kardon. The styling of all HK's gear around that time was cleary more Shin Shirasuna (Silver) than Harman.

Here's a 1980 Silver system. Not the remarkable similarity to the HK branded mainstream HiFI gear from 1982/3/4/5...
I have a pair of Harman Kardon hk 775 power amplifiers, and they are so very similar in styling to those Silver-branded units.

1603621843751.png
 

restorer-john

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I have a pair of Harman Kardon hk 775 power amplifiers, and they are so very similar in styling to those Silver-branded units.

Yep, most people didn't know they are identical or

a) who made them and
b) who styled them.

Doesn't change the fact they are beautiful, classic designs. I have a ton of HK gear from that era. Now I've let the cat out of the bag- you'll be searching for Silver gear now. :)
 

restorer-john

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That's a very tough test. I think the low-frequency part would be particularly difficult for many amplifiers. I don't seem to recall that as a specification that was typically provided in the brochures.

"Rated power bandwidth" was the specification. It's a tricky term because it's not "rated power" as such but the bandwidth over which the amplfier can deliver its rated power to -3dB (half power). It was part of the FTC amplifier rule IIRC.

@DonH56 may comment on this. :)
 

witwald

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Damping factor of the AHB2 = 370 in stereo / 185 in mono (actually a nominal value and only at 8 ohms).
What this means is that the damping factor of 370 is being provided with reference to an 8-ohm load. The output impedance, Rg, for that damping factor is Rg = 8/370 = 0.0216 ohms. As the damping factor decreases (with increasing frequency for the AHB2), the output impedance increases. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the damping factor for AHB2 in mono is 1/2 that in stereo, simply from the physical nature of the circuit.
It actually varies, starting to roll off @ ~200Hz. Seems good right? However I have never seen the ACTUAL curve of the AHB2's mono performance measurements, nor have I ever seem the same performance measured at 6 or 4 ohms (my old NS2K's are 6 ohm nom. and my new SX-1000LABO's are 4 ohms nom.). Clearly many speakers spend a lot of time under 8 ohms. So if we are to discuss measurements perhaps those measurements would help clear things up a little.
The critical parameter of interest is the actual output impedance of the amplifier. This (probably) stays fairly constant irrespective of the impedance of the loudspeaker. Of course, amplifiers with a high output impedance are more susceptible to frequency response variations (e.g. tube amplifiers).
Luckily John Siau shared a spreadsheet where one can calculate the damping factor of the ENTIRE system (including speaker cable length and impedance).
That was a very helpful spreadsheet. However, it does not easily show the variation with frequency that occurs as a function of loudspeaker load, let alone the variation in an amplifier's output impedance with frequency. The analysis of that combined behaviour provides some insight into the equaliser-like behaviour that a low damping factor (high output impedance) introduces.
The speakers, and cables, are an integral part of the performance of the amplifier, and do make a difference to the sound the amplifier reproduces - in the real world.
That's quite correct. It's the total system that needs to be accounted for.
 

DonH56

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"Rated power bandwidth" was the specification. It's a tricky term because it's not "rated power" as such but the bandwidth over which the amplifier can deliver its rated power to -3dB (half power). It was part of the FTC amplifier rule IIRC.

@DonH56 may comment on this. :)

Disclaimer: I was cruising along and commented without noticing this was the Benchmark thread. All my comments should be treated as non-specific to the AHB2 or any specific amplifier.

Not really, been too many years, and that spec (among others) seems to have fallen out of vogue. Back when the world was young and John and I were little boys tearing apart our parent's TV sets (at least I was, first color TV, had it in pieces on day two to see where the color came from; my posts today are testament that I was able to reassemble it and it worked and thus lived to tell the tale) full-power bandwidth became a Big Deal. I think it was around the late 1970's maybe into the early 1990's when ultrawideband bandwidth (speaking of Citation ;) ) and vanishingly low distortion became all the rage. The full-power BW spec I don't see much today. AFAIK it is still in the FTC spec, but the rules were relaxed at the request of manufacturers making multi-channel receivers and amplifiers for home theater and such since not all channels needed full power (specs), or so they said. Resulting in the mess today where a multichannel AVR rated for 100 W/ch only delivers about 30 W/ch when they are all driven (I have one of those, alas, a Sony Elite, which I did not expect to drop off so much).

Wandering aside, John is correct (of course) that it was a measure of the bandwidth of an amplifier measured relative to full rated power at 1 kHz (I think). A number of new SS "superamps" claimed DC to hundreds of kHz or more bandwidth (which never seemed real desirable to me but that's another discussion). Tube amps tended to roll off at LF and HF due to the transformer and other parasitics as well as design choices so the new SS amps could show their performance advantage by touting much greater full power bandwidth. But of course even SS was not a panacea; LF response was generally better, though the debate rages to this day how much response below 10 or 20 Hz really matters, and for some HF response was much better and for others equal or worse. And of course some wideband amps would oscillate and destroy themselves with the right load (speaker).

The test was simple; set the amp to deliver rated power at 1 kHz (typically and into a resistor test load), then sweep frequency high and low to find the -3 dB point. That defined your full power bandwidth. Only power mattered, I don't think there was a distortion spec but it has been ages and I'm too lazy to find my old copy of the FTC (or IHF) spec. Distortion at those limits could be "interesting", so of course you rarely found distortion specs tightly coupled to full-power bandwidth, or often specified much higher. You'd see bandwidth specified at 1 W or whatever to give really wide frequency numbers, full-power distortion at 1 kHz or over a more limited frequency range (e.g. 20 - 20 kHz no matter the full-power bandwidth) to provide some nice low numbers (say 20 Hz to 20 kHz at 0.05%), and then the full-power bandwidth at some higher number (say 5 Hz to 100 kHz at less than 1% THD). Essentially manufacturers could "skirt" the rules by printing a whole bunch of specifications to fill the datasheet but with almost nil correlation among them. You (I, John, etc.) had to bench (test) the amp to see what it would really do.

Damping factor is simply load impedance divided by amplifier output impedance. It is a simple number and (I remain convinced) used mainly because you can generate big numbers for marketing, and bigger is better so it helps sell amps. And yes there were plenty of arguments that amps with >1000 DF (e.g. Phase Linear) didn't matter in the real world because as soon as you added speaker cables the effective DF the speaker saw was reduced by an order of magnitude or more (still waiting for superconducting speaker cables). And virtually nobody (then or now) commented on the wires inside the speaker, impedance of the crossover, or tiny little wires in the voice coils, let alone how phase influenced it. Providing damping factor as a single number does not tell you much about how a particular speaker's sound is affected except "higher is better". How high depends upon the speakers, cables, etc. And few manufacturer's these days provide damping factor over frequency -- some provide a few points, like 20 Hz, 1 kHz, and 20 kHz, and far fewer provide an actual curve. Some provide output impedance but often at a single frequency (or do not specify the frequency). And so it goes.

While some designs exhibit reduced damping factor (higher output impedance) at low frequency, most (especially SS) amplifiers have high damping (low output impedance) at LF, falling as the feedback factor is reduced due to feedback loop bandwidth. You can put a whole bunch of devices in parallel and use fat wires in the amp but to get really low output impedance requires feedback. Feedback senses the output and forces it to track the input, so can make an amplifier look like it has near-zero output impedance -- assuming the feedback factor (loop gain and bandwidth) is high enough. It is hard to get wide bandwidth with high gain and stay stable, plus it's expensive, so feedback factor is one of those design trades designers make. Including "none", as seems to be in vogue these days in some circles, alas.

I try not to make definitive statements about how output impedance (Zout) affects the sound because, as mentioned before, it very much depends upon the whole system. An amp with higher Zout placed right next to the speaker with short cables may have lower frequency variations than an amp with much lower Zout (much higher damping factor) placed twenty feet (what, ~6 m?) away and driving longer cables. And of course the speaker's impedance matters; one with relatively flat impedance is less sensitive to amplifier Zout. Then add preference; people may prefer the sound of certain speakers with certain amps because they like the resulting frequency response. Nothing at all wrong with that, but try explaining why their choice is subjectively (and measurably) worse and it's a cat fight. Best sip the wine, enjoy the music, and nod at the comments about how good it sounds. And chances are it really does sound great.

FWIWFM - Don
 

pjug

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Worst case impedance related frequency response variation 0.14dB (Benchmark stated ideal is 0.1dB for inaudibility).

I think that 0.1dB target is questionable. I find it a little bit funny because the Benchmark white paper goes on about this and now the 0.1 dB number is being used to show that the AHB2 might not be good enough. I don't doubt that a 0.14dB step change might be audible, but that's not the same thing as perceiving a miniscule dip or rise in the frequency response. I doubt any real or perceived problem with the AHB2 has anything to do with damping factor.
 

JimB

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I think that 0.1dB target is questionable. I find it a little bit funny because the Benchmark white paper goes on about this and now the 0.1 dB number is being used to show that the AHB2 might not be good enough. I don't doubt that a 0.14dB step change might be audible, but that's not the same thing as perceiving a miniscule dip or rise in the frequency response. I doubt any real or perceived problem with the AHB2 has anything to do with damping factor.
I found I can distinguish about 0.1 dB difference in tweeter level with some material. I was disappointed at the time that such a small shift could matter. It’s just about impossible to control everything to that degree. So, I guess we’ll be left with audible differences among even the best systems (but maybe not the best amps within their ratings), for a long time. Find a way to balance what you like and be happy.
 

pjug

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I found I can distinguish about 0.1 dB difference in tweeter level with some material. I was disappointed at the time that such a small shift could matter. It’s just about impossible to control everything to that degree. So, I guess we’ll be left with audible differences among even the best systems (but maybe not the best amps within their ratings), for a long time. Find a way to balance what you like and be happy.
I can barely notice a 0.4 dB step change in a 440Hz tone.
 

JimB

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I can barely notice a 0.4 dB step change in a 440Hz tone.
I understand. That is a quite different test - I might be the same. It is interesting that people 'prefer' something played slightly louder (small fractions of a dB) in comparisons, hence the concerns here that precise level matching be used when doing listening comparisons of components.
 
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Laserjock

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Chippyboy

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Please can someone who owns this, answer a quick question for me? If the amp auto powers down after 40 minutes, what happens when it receives a signal? Does it power up again?

Or do you have to turn it on with the button on the front again? I want to leave the amp in a (well ventilated, large) cupboard and really would like to not have to keep switching it on (or off).
 

Pdxwayne

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We did some real world blind audition amp testing on Sunday with this amp and a few others. Here's a link for anyone interested.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/ka...e-night-events.1496367/page-450#post-60198218
post 8989.
Hi, didn't Amir said this about av8805?

"From pure objective performance, the Marantz AV8805 Processor cannot touch 2-channel dedicated desktop DACs."

Have you done similar blind tests using desktop DAC plus preamp with much better measurements?

Thanks!
 
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Archaea

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Hi, didn't Amir said this about av8805?

"From pure objective performance, the Marantz AV8805 Processor cannot touch 2-channel dedicated desktop DACs."

Have you done similar blind tests using desktop DAC plus preamp with much better measurements?

Thanks!
No we haven’t. But keep in mind the Benchmark AHB2 should have been able to not limit the Marantz Flagship 8805 prepro’s SINAD quality, and the A800 and the Crown XLS 1502 score quite a bit lower than the Marantz 8805 propro’s SINAD score. So there should still be a large SINAD/distortion margin between the two.

Marantz 8805 SINAD = 92
A800 SINAD = 77
Crown XLS 1502 SINAD =76

So still a 15dB drop into what some would say should be audible territory (and on the side of the equation that should be the most audible).
 
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Pdxwayne

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No we haven’t. But keep in mind the Benchmark AHB2 should have been able to not limit the Marantz Flagship 8805 prepro’s SINAD quality, and the A800 and the Crown XLS 1502 score quite a bit lower than the Marantz 8805 propro’s SINAD score. So there should still be a large SINAD/distortion margin between the two.

Marantz 8805 SINAD = 92
A800 SINAD = 77
Crown XLS 1502 SINAD =76

So still a 15dB drop into what some would say should be audible territory.
Yeah, reasonable expectations to expect to hear a difference. I do wonder about the speaker though.

You were using Martin Logan Renaissance electrostatic, right? It has its own powered bass woofers that handle frequencies up to over 200 Hz?

I see this when searching via Google:
images.jpeg-2.jpg

Won't that masked any high distortions in the region of 20 Hz to over 200 Hz for any of the amp being tested?
 

yyzsb

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I plan on getting a second AHB2 for my setup. It may or may not be a useful change because my Thiel 3.7's go below 4 Ohms. I am going to try it and see if mono AHB2's sounds better than a single AHB2.

My question is regarding the speaker cables. I have 6 foot speaker cables from Benchmark, with the SpeakON connections. Would it be better if I chopped the 6 foot speaker cables in half instead of buying a second pair of 6 foot speaker cables?
 

Coach_Kaarlo

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I plan on getting a second AHB2 for my setup. It may or may not be a useful change because my Thiel 3.7's go below 4 Ohms. I am going to try it and see if mono AHB2's sounds better than a single AHB2.

My question is regarding the speaker cables. I have 6 foot speaker cables from Benchmark, with the SpeakON connections. Would it be better if I chopped the 6 foot speaker cables in half instead of buying a second pair of 6 foot speaker cables?

Shorter, low resistance, low inductance, cables will return some of the lost damping factor due to running MONO (halved compared to Stereo) - on paper at least.

Subjectively I have found the best results by using about 300mm of Canare 4S11 cable terminated with Speakon connectors. The AHB2's are placed directly behind their respective loudspeaker, so you need longer interconnects.

Objectively, I have tried a number of ways to measure the difference I can hear, as yet nothing conclusive.

Also, long cables are handy, especially if well terminated as the ones from Benchmark are - perhaps just buy some cable and Neutrik Speak-On connectors and make your own up - in case you wish to revert to original.
 

yyzsb

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Ok, I know someone who will sell me their 6 foot Benchmark cable and will use that to chop up. I will keep my existing 6 foot cable in case I go back to the Stereo version of the AHB2.
 
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