Roon 1.3 Adds DSP PEQ, Sonos, Multi-channel, and more

[Sal1950]

I do not have a track count, but my album count is > 3,200 in my main SACD library, mostly classical, mostly Mch. Many albums are multi-disc operas, etc.

Sometimes these huge personal libraries of music have me scratching my head.
How many of those albums that you've collected have you only heard once, or maybe never?
I have a good sized library or around 1K and there's many that only got spinned once or twice.
Now since the advent of streaming my buying had tapered off dramatically. I've only purchased a few since Spotify that I thought was worth the $ for higher SQ, mostly HD downloads of new masterings.

 

[RayDunzl]

I may be wrong but I thought the files could be created with REW which is available for free?

REW creates parametric filter parameters.

It doesn't create Finite Impulse Response filters, which can adjust phase and frequency response in what looks like almost arbitrary fashion.

 

[Sal1950]

REW creates parametric filter parameters.

It doesn't create Finite Impulse Response filters, which can adjust phase and frequency response in what looks like almost arbitrary fashion.

Thanks Ray,
Another question then is, are FIR filters the only ones that Roon will/can use, or only the best possible approach.
This stuffs just way too confusing. Apparently REW is capable of creating all manner of filters?

 

[watchnerd]

In our library

When you're referring to "our library", are you just referring to your personal library? Or something else?

 

[watchnerd]

Thanks Ray,
Another question then is, are FIR filters the only ones that Roon will/can use, or only the best possible approach.
This stuffs just way too confusing. Apparently REW is capable of creating all manner of filters?

The new Roon 1.3 UI has a selection choice for IIR or FIR.

 

[RayDunzl]

Apparently REW is capable of creating all manner of filters?

I'm not up to speed on DSP and Filters.

Infinite Impulse Response filters are created as Bi-quads, whatever they are. Inifinite means "uses feedback" or recursion - the data loops through the filter (?). Here's one:

b0=0.62337350986264013,
b1=-0.40715651524652960,
b2=0.13734218909046259,
a1=0.24408404926654605,
a2=0.07621183506691347

It's small.

REW can create those for me. They describe one "filter" - think one hump in a response curve. I get like 14 of those in my miniDSP the way it's set up.

Finite Response Filters are created as data to create a corrective impulse response and have a coefficient for every tap (memory location) in the DSP.

Fill the DSP with music samples, apply the filter to that whole chunk of data, to create a single new "filtered" sample. Push the next sample into the DSP memory (the old first one is pushed out) and create the next "filtered sample" to go to the DAC. Repeat the operation at 48kHz.

My miniDSP has 6144 taps so there are 6144 lines of data:

b0 = 0.0,
b1 = 0.0,
b2 = -2.954842926870989e-14,
b3 = -1.8055980430427276e-13,
b4 = -6.127623907413449e-13,
b5 = -1.5591428972547283e-12,
b6 = -3.3313874662349585e-12,
b7 = -6.325315705241197e-12,
...
b417 = -0.00022200765670277178,
b418 = -0.0002233331761090085,
b419 = -0.0002246562798973173,
b420 = -0.00022597686620429158,
b421 = -0.00022729481861460954,
....
b6138 = -4.289302420190655e-12,
b6139 = -1.7101571894717615e-12,
b6140 = -5.128505584615917e-13,
b6141 = -8.538305560626056e-14,
b6142 = 0.0,
b6143 = 0.0,

Plotted as a graph the data looks like this, around the middle of the file, This doesn't include the contribution of the IIR filters (low frequencies), that's another set of data:

An "empty" filter template (do nothing) would have a single value of "1" at tap 3144, the rest "0".

So, for whatever reason, REW doesn't make FIR filters (yet?), probably because it's a little bit new to have them in the hands of the unwashed masses (my guess).

I use AcourateDRC (think Acourate Lite) to do the dirty work of listening to a sweep tone, and coming up with a set of corrective IIR (low frequencies) and FIR (higher frequencies and phase correction) to shove into the convolver (the SHARC DSP in my little miniDSP).


Heres the measured impulse response at the preamp (no filter):

And with the filters for the JBLs applied (left channel):

You muck up the signal going to the amplifiers to "correct" what is received at the listening position.

Measured Preamp Step Response (no filter)

It crosses the zero line at 100ms - because 10Hz (100ms cycle time) was the lowest frequency in the sweep. Nice accuracy there in calculation and reproduction, I think.

It turns into this mess at the preamp output when the FIR and IIR filters are applied:

But it fixes things up for the listener after it goes through the speakers (they are a filter, of sorts).

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

When you're referring to "our library", are you just referring to your personal library? Or something else?

I am referring to my library, however the design and evolution of the scheme, evaluation of software, etc. was a collaboration among several guys who use versions of the same ideas.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Sometimes these huge personal libraries of music have me scratching my head.
How many of those albums that you've collected have you only heard once, or maybe never?
I have a good sized library or around 1K and there's many that only got spinned once or twice.
Now since the advent of streaming my buying had tapered off dramatically. I've only purchased a few since Spotify that I thought was worth the $ for higher SQ, mostly HD downloads of new masterings.

Yes, no doubt, some albums wind up that way. However, I have many examples of stuff I bought, listened to once, did not care for, but years later something clicked - the AHA moment - about the composition, the music, the performance or the sound that changed my views. That happens with classical music, at least with me, all the time. It is a continuous voyage of discovery and even rediscovery.

If I could exactly predict what I will want to listen to 5 or 10 years from now, I could throw a lot of stuff away, for sure. Of course, I have my favorites as of today. But, 10 years ago, I would not have predicted that I would become such a huge fan-boy for Haydn String Quartets, for example. It is a good thing I had not thrown those I bought as I was experimenting with that musical genre away.

Besides, storage is cheap these days.

 

[watchnerd]

Sometimes these huge personal libraries of music have me scratching my head.
How many of those albums that you've collected have you only heard once, or maybe never?

A big portion of my library has only been heard once or never. Most of it was accumulated before streaming existed. I no longer add to my local NAS unless I discover something that just can't be found on streaming.

However...things are improving thanks to Roon!

It's "Radio" feature does a pretty good job of style/genre matching and playing things in my collection that I haven't heard.

 

[Ron Party]

So, I have my way of tagging my files and, in particular, album titles. For example, let's take the album Relayer by Yes. I have several versions of this album, with the album titles tagged as follows:

Relayer (2003 Remaster)
Relayer (2013 Japanese High Vibration Box SACD) (DSD)
Relayer (2014 Steven Wilson Mix)
Relayer (2014 Steven Wilson Mix) [24-96 Blu-Ray 5.1]
Relayer (2014 Steven Wilson Mix) [24-96 Blu-Ray]
Relayer (Flat Transfer From Original Stereo Mix) [24-48 Blu-Ray]
Relayer [24-192 HDtracks]

Actually, I have several more versions, but I think the collective can understand where I'm going with this.

Does this create any kind of hurdle for Roon?

 

[watchnerd]

I just started messing around with the new PEQ in Roon 1.3.

It's configurable by playback device, so you can input different settings for the different locations in your house.

It looks like it tops out at 16 bands, which if I recall correctly is more than what my miniDSP OpenDRC-DI can do.

 

[amirm]

Does this create any kind of hurdle for Roon?

I don't think so. It has rich interface for showing different revisions. I just did a search for Dire Straits and as you see it shows the two revisions of Brother in Arms:

 

[Sal1950]

It's "Radio" feature does a pretty good job of style/genre matching and playing things in my collection that I haven't heard.

So this is mainly being used in a background type scenario and not for a serious, sitting in the sweet spot, lights out, serious listening session?

 

[watchnerd]

So this is mainly being used in a background type scenario and not for a serious, sitting in the sweet spot, lights out, serious listening session?

You can use Roon however you want. You can listen to an album from start to finish, or use the Radio feature to let it jump around (I don't use Radio with classical, though), or play internet radio or streaming.

The "Radio" feature is optional, it can be turned on or off. I use it for discovery. It seems to do as good a job of creating thematically linked songs as Pandora. I don't find it that much different than listening to a human-run radio station.

I sit in the sweet spot. I usually have 1 table lamp on.

Does that make it serious?

I dunno. I enjoy it, though.

 

[amirm]

So this is mainly being used in a background type scenario and not for a serious, sitting in the sweet spot, lights out, serious listening session?

It actually works pretty well and seamlessly. It takes over when your album/playlist finishes. It works so seamlessly that often I don't realize it has started to play on its own! It matches your album style extremely well, continuing the theme without you doing anything.

 

[Sal1950]

The "Radio" feature is optional, it can be turned on or off. I use it for discovery. It seems to do as good a job of creating thematically linked songs as Pandora. I don't find it that much different than listening to a human-run radio station.
I sit in the sweet spot. I usually have 1 table lamp on.

OK, just trying to get a handle on how it's used. It's a bit of a foreign approach to serious listening for me. For immersive listening I will chose a album three or four, of know type and SQ and load them into a play list, then get comfortable.
Radio station type listening is something I would use for background when I'm involved in doing something else.
All a matter of preference I guess, and maybe the result of different generations listening styles?

 

[Sal1950]

It actually works pretty well and seamlessly. It takes over when your album/playlist finishes. It works so seamlessly that often I don't realize it has started to play on its own! It matches your album style extremely well, continuing the theme without you doing anything.

Spotify looks to be able to do something similar, maybe try it one night?

 

[amirm]

Spotify looks to be able to do something similar, maybe try it one night?

The functionality is pretty common. I just find Roon's version to work very well especially since it doesn't have access to anything other than my own library as opposed to millions of tracks in Spotify.

 

[watchnerd]

OK, just trying to get a handle on how it's used. It's a bit of a foreign approach to serious listening for me. For immersive listening I will chose a album three or four, of know type and SQ and load them into a play list, then get comfortable.
Radio station type listening is something I would use for background when I'm involved in doing something else.
All a matter of preference I guess, and maybe the result of different generations listening styles?

I'm not sure if it's generational or physical media (CD, LP, tape) vs "over the air" (terrestrial radio, internet radio, streaming, NAS).

It's sort of like using a playlist -- as @amirm says it's really smart about genre matching, but I think it must go way beyond that, because I seem to get stuff of similar tempo and, sometimes, even the exact same instrument (e.g. I had a run of Hammond B3 jazz players one night).

But as, I said, I don't use it for classical because you typically don't want to listen to things like symphony movements in a random fashion.

 

[Sal1950]

The functionality is pretty common. I just find Roon's version to work very well especially since it doesn't have access to anything other than my own library as opposed to millions of tracks in Spotify.

Oh, I didn't get that bit. So it's building metadata files on your personal library so to enable this "smart" DJ function. Very intelligent