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Topping D70 DAC

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yue

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I have certainly not heard any audible problems from USB powered DAC's in the past. :rolleyes:

Depends on what host device you use to power it. Some may be underpowered and very noisy. For instance, If you power your raspberry pi with a small phone charger (which most people do), its USB ports cannot deliver stable power to a USB DAC. In various situation you'll even receive kernel warning messages indicate the device is underpowered. If those USB ports are connected to external devices (very common), such as spinning hard drives, for instance, The power for the DAC will become much more noisy.

many people experience power issues in the first version (the one nwavguy involves with) of ODAC. that's why JDS subsequently partner with the original designer and released a second version which solves the USB power issue. JDS' latest DAC products don't rely on USB power.
 
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yue

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Where did you buy Topping DX3 Pro?

AliExpress but I canceled the order once I heard they're working hard on MQA.
I am super anti-MQA and believe DAC companies should stay away from it.
So I sent them a protest email and cancel the order.
 

derp1n

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AliExpress but I canceled the order once I heard they're working hard on MQA.
I am super anti-MQA and believe DAC companies should stay away from it.
So I sent them a protest email and cancel the order.
That's a shame. Where'd you get that information?

Seems strange they'd release a high end DAC product (D70) without MQA if they're planning on releasing later products with it included. Although it's probably just a firmware update for XMOS, like many other MQA-supporting USB DACs offer.
 

VMAT4

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... I am super anti-MQA and believe DAC companies should stay away from it.
So I sent them a protest email and cancel the order.

MQA is progress. Which, one can not fight and is not to be confused with improvement.
 
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yue

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That's a shame. Where'd you get that information?

Seems strange they'd release a high end DAC product (D70) without MQA if they're planning on releasing later products with it included. Although it's probably just a firmware update for XMOS, like many other MQA-supporting USB DACs offer.

I asked them to support 16 bit PCM in their firmware (currently only 24 and 32 bits are supported). They told me their processor (xu208) is not powerful enough to handle 16bit playback. I told them that's not a reasonable explanation at all --- with computer science background I'm pretty confident that if a processor is able to handle 24 and 32 bits playback, handling 16 bits should be trivial. But somehow the conversation turns into a discussion that they are investigating adoption of faster interface processor (such as xu216) because they need more power to handle MQA support. So when upgrading to xu216 they are likely to support 16bit PCM playback.

They told me many users sent emails to them asking if a firmware update could support MQA when D50 was released. Strangely in recent months no one ever contacted them about MQA at all. But they believe many people may want MQA. I told them most of their customers come from this forum. The same time amir released his D50 measurement, there's another heated thread going on discussing about MQA. So many users may accidentally drop them an inquiry email, just out of their curiosity. But unless someone makes a wide reached enough poll, there's no evidence that most people need this technology.

They continued the discussion, mentioning all their major competitors are all working on MQA support, which make them nervous. They are afraid of losing advantage if they don't support MQA.

Hi-Res (such as DSD, or 96/24) music are useless as playback format (IMHO). But I am not against them. Thanks to its wide adoption in hifi community, now we have DACs of much higher quality. Today's DACs use 32bit floating point calculation, and have much higher internal upsampling rate. Those improvements greatly reduces noise. So even if you are not playing Hi-Res music at all, you still get these improvements in many scenarios --- for instance, you can set your DAC in very low volume, and still have CD linearity intact, thanks to the super low noise floor modern DACs offer. Those things were very hard to do a few years ago.

Hi-Res makes money flow into companies with engineering excellence. But MQA is not that kind of technology. It's not an open standard. Nor is it an improvement over the past technology. Rather, it's a new way to collect taxes from various parts of music industry. Other than that, its license term limits the user ability to transcode the music they purchase to other formats and play in non-MQA capable devices. You no longer owns your music. You own files whose playability are determined by a private company. DAC makers rush to support MQA not because it makes their product objectively sounds better, but because they are afraid of losing advantage to their competitors. It will become a disaster for the entire music industry if MQA goes mainstream. All customers lose.

MQA requires a licensing fee from device maker for each device that supports MQA. That adds extra cost to each device I purchase even I'm super against it. So I won't purchase DACs from manufacturers that supports MQA. Likewise, I will not purchase DACs from manufacturers who intend to support it --- I don't want their revenue, my hard earned money, being used to promote an evil technology that turns against me.
 
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amirm

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I asked for more information from Topping on D70 and here is what they said:

---

About D70, It is a 2 x AK4497 DAC, it comes without built-in headphone amp but has built-in linear power supply. Size of it is similar with DX7s. USB+COAX+OPT+AES+IIS+Bluetooth input, RCA+XLR output. It is still being developing now. We expected to be completed January to March next year.

----
 
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Wow if that is affordable at all that is my dream dac, been really interested in the AK4497 as I love AKM dacs, but only dual mono ones I could fine were either extremely expensive or by random Chinese manufacturers that have no rep at all. Getting one from a great manufacturing like Topping would be great! Guess I am gonna wait till next year to upgrade this Modi 3.
 

March Audio

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Depends on what host device you use to power it. Some may be underpowered and very noisy. For instance, If you power your raspberry pi with a small phone charger (which most people do), its USB ports cannot deliver stable power to a USB DAC. In various situation you'll even receive kernel warning messages indicate the device is underpowered. If those USB ports are connected to external devices (very common), such as spinning hard drives, for instance, The power for the DAC will become much more noisy.

many people experience power issues in the first version (the one nwavguy involves with) of ODAC. that's why JDS subsequently partner with the original designer and released a second version which solves the USB power issue. JDS' latest DAC products don't rely on USB power.

Don't forget that usb powered dacs don't necessarily rely directly on that input 5v.
Most will have switching and further regulated supplies to provide the various voltages required in the circuit.

The measurements tell the story. If the output is clean the output is clean.

Of course its not beyond the realms of possibility you might have a powering device that causes a problem, but a well designed dac should be relatively immune to problems. Fluctuating and variable usb power conditions should a given, expected and designed for. Personally I have never measured a dac which shows usb power related issues (not saying they don't exist) . Occasionally see 8kHz usb packet noise.

Perhaps @amirm could introduce one more test, put something like noisy current hungry mechanical usb drives in parallel on the same USB channel and see what happens.
 
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Veri

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MQA is progress. Which, one can not fight and is not to be confused with improvement.

We have MQA shills here now? Anyway I've been long interested in the AKM4497 :D This topping D70 looks awesome.
 

VMAT4

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We have MQA shills here now? Anyway I've been long interested in the AKM4497 :D This topping D70 looks awesome.

Progress and improvement are two different things! I'm not schilling for MQA! I'm just saying it's the direction the industry is heading towards for better or worse. Would you kindly apologize?
 

bennetng

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Darwin

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We have MQA shills here now? Anyway I've been long interested in the AKM4497 :D This topping D70 looks awesome.

Yeah I’m an MQA shill. I like the way it sounds. I’ve read all the arguments for and against and don’t buy most of the ones against. No I’m not going to debate it here but I will say I like it.
 
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This looks promising. Hopefully they'll go through the trouble of applying thermal pads on all units.
 
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yue

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http://www.jas-audio.or.jp/english/hi-res-logo-en/hi-res-logo-application-process
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=3141
The Hi-Res Audio logo also requires a licensing fee. If people against MQA for this reason they should boycott products with that logo as well.

Right. But there are a few key differences.

1. Tech wise. If you are anti hires, you can avoid some part of it in your system. You can use a hires headphone with a normal dac. and listen to hires music. Or you can avoid it in all stages in your system. You still get and own your music and lives happily.

For instance. I do not believe consumers need hires files, but I believe a hires dac maybe beneficial as it usually have better specs. So I never purchased hires music and instead use redbook. On the other hand I have a hires dac equipment.


So for hires boycotters, you have choice. You can pro some stages of it and anti others.

MQA is different and requires the entire pipeline to be mqa certified. You cannot just boycott a single stage anymore. So if your device supports it, I will not purchase it no matter what it is.

2. Marketing wise. Which is more closely related to what you are talking. hires as a label is just marketing. Requiring a fee is normal practice and of course you can boycot it. But the tech itself it open standard and free. You can still build a 32 bit 756khz dac without paying the license fee as long as you don’t use the label. But you cannot build a mqa device without a fee— that violates the patent.

That’s a big difference. You can boycott the hires certification but still enjoy the goodness it brings to you. It’s similar to the Unix certificate. You cannot brand a system as Unix without a fee. You can boycott the Unix brand. But you can use Linux or FreeBSD that behaves exactly like Unix. You can safely love the technology of Unix because it’s a free and open standard.
 

Majestyk

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IMO, MQA will go the way of Circuit City's DVD competitor, DIVX. But it's going to take longer because not enough people see the pitfalls in it. Unlike DIVX where everyone hated it. (No, I'm not talking about DivX)
 

bennetng

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Right. But there are a few key differences.
2. Marketing wise. Which is more closely related to what you are talking. hires as a label is just marketing. Requiring a fee is normal practice and of course you can boycot it. But the tech itself it open standard and free. You can still build a 32 bit 756khz dac without paying the license fee as long as you don’t use the label. But you cannot build a mqa device without a fee— that violates the patent.
Some Topping, SMSL and other Asian products have that Hi-Res Audio logo (since it is a Sony thing), if you buy those products then even if you exclusively use 16/44 sources, those manufacturers still paid for that logo.

About the MQA pipeline stuff, I need someone to clarify that. If I have a normal 16/44 CD, rip it and use a DAC with MQA technology to play it, will it still forcibly apply the MQA processing on it?

ESS has a press release:
http://www.esstech.com/index.php?cID=439

Does it mean if I own a ESS based DAC with MQA support, all of my audio files will be MQA processed regardless of the files themselves are designed for MQA or not?

I for myself don't own any product with MQA support and don't own any product with that Hi-Res logo. The "Hi-Res Audio" I mentioned is not a generic term (e.g. above 16/44 or at least 24/96), I mean products with that specific "Hi-Res Audio" logo.

If the MQA process is disabled, then it is supposed to do nothing and has nothing to do with the product's functionalities.

If products with and without that Hi-Res Audio logo are fully compatible, then the logo itself has nothing to do the product's functionalities.

In this sense they are the same, paying extra money for nothing.

If what people care about is "the MQA processing pipeline needs money for licensing" then it seems to me that those people think the process is beneficial or useful.
 
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jsmiller58

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I asked for more information from Topping on D70 and here is what they said:

---

About D70, It is a 2 x AK4497 DAC, it comes without built-in headphone amp but has built-in linear power supply. Size of it is similar with DX7s. USB+COAX+OPT+AES+IIS+Bluetooth input, RCA+XLR output. It is still being developing now. We expected to be completed January to March next year.

----
Wow. If the reality (including measurements) meet the potential of this product... Well, I will have to say "Come to Papa!!"

But if it is targeted for Q1/19, then realistically it will be mid-19 to early Q3/19, which, truth be told, will be just fine by my wallet...

On a tangential note, any sense if an A50 is still in the works, or would they simply synch product lines with an A70 instead to match the D70...? Hmmm...
 

Ron Texas

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I have certainly not heard any audible problems from USB powered DAC's in the past. :rolleyes:

It depends on the quality of the power from the USB port and how good the filtering is on the DAC.
 
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yue

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If the MQA process is disabled, then it is supposed to do nothing and has nothing to do with the product's functionalities.

If products with and without that Hi-Res Audio logo are fully compatible, then the logo itself has nothing to do the product's functionalities.

In this sense they are the same, paying extra money for nothing.

Product with or without hires logos can be fully compatible. That’s not the case with mqa
 
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yue

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IMO, MQA will go the way of Circuit City's DVD competitor, DIVX. But it's going to take longer because not enough people see the pitfalls in it. Unlike DIVX where everyone hated it. (No, I'm not talking about DivX)
All tech become irrelevant when the problem they want to solve doesn’t exist anymore, or a competitor solves the problem better (either tech wise or marketing wise). IMO mqa might die even sooner, because
1. The problem it solves doesn’t exist at all from day one
2. It’s a controversial tech from day 1. And many people, either people from the industry or consumers, hate it.
 
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