Why are there no sensible DACs in computers?

[DanielT]

Given the technical development and improvement of DACs recent decades
, just look at the new cheaper DACs performance, incomparably good. Isn't the next step for computer manufacturers to implement high-performance internal DACs in computers and thus make external DACs redundant?

What is stopping the big computer manufacturers from doing so today? No commercial demand? Technical difficulties (it is still DACs, that is, there is conversion to an A component in DAC), ie currently too expensive and takes up a lot of space in the computers, the sound cards?

What do you think will happen in the future?

 

[JJB70]

I am guessing that it is a combination of two things.

The mainstream market has gone wireless for speakers and headphones, and regardless of how they measure onboard DACs are entirely sufficient for the vast majority of users.

I wish I had a pound (or rather, a dollar now) for every time I have heard someone admit they have bought a separate DAC/amp and admitted it sounded the same as their phone or computer.

 

[sergeauckland]

Completely agree. The DACs built in to computers, 'phones or tablets are more than good enough for audible transparency, even if far from SOTA. There's therefore no incentive or need to improve what's already perfectly Good Enough.

S

 

[DanielT]

I wish I had a pound (or rather, a dollar now) for every time I have heard someone admit they have bought a separate DAC/amp and admitted it sounded the same as their phone or computer.

Well, there is undeniably something to think about. I must admit my ignorance. I may have just imagined that internal DACs in computers do not have such good performance.

Per se one should probably not generalize all computers, mobiles, pads and so on. Reasonably, there should be different qualities ,performance
of internal DAcar in computers.

 

[oivavoi]

Completely agree. The DACs built in to computers, 'phones or tablets are more than good enough for audible transparency, even if far from SOTA. There's therefore no incentive or need to improve what's already perfectly Good Enough.

S

I'd say it depends. The dac and audio output on my ipad is more than good enough (provided there's enough power for headphones for example). The audio out on my Dell laptop has some noise in comparison, which is noticeable without music or with quiet passages. I'm pretty sure I would be able to pick them out in a blind test. I agree that many computers and most phones and tablets are audibly transparent by now though.

 

[maverickronin]

DACs built into PCs are just god awful. They pretty much all hiss like a pit of vipers. Amir's Dell XPS 8930 still stands at the very bottom of the DAC chart.

Macs, tablets, and phones are usually better though.

 

[JJB70]

I think that most complaints about computer and device audio output tend to be more about the headphone amplifier than the DAC. Depending on how easy to drive headphones are and how loud people like to listen the headphone amplifier may be worth upgrading. Even with the amplifier, if it drives your preferred headphones to the required volume then there's probably no point buying an amplifier either. I have a Huawei laptop and am perfectly happy with the audio output. And if people use wireless (BT or WiFi) then it's a non-issue.

 

[Jim Matthews]

For those of us that use computers, only when we must, a separate DAC is just a preference. Most of my favorite recordings since 2000 were mixed on MacBooks.

 

[sergeauckland]

I think that most complaints about computer and device audio output tend to be more about the headphone amplifier than the DAC. Depending on how easy to drive headphones are and how loud people like to listen the headphone amplifier may be worth upgrading. Even with the amplifier, if it drives your preferred headphones to the required volume then there's probably no point buying an amplifier either. I have a Huawei laptop and am perfectly happy with the audio output. And if people use wireless (BT or WiFi) then it's a non-issue.

Perhaps so, I've never used headphones that way, always used the output into an amplifier, and never had a problem. However, this shows that there's nothing wrong with the DAC, which is the topic of this thread, although there may be something wrong, or at least limited, in the capability of the analogue outputs to drive headphones. A different issue.

S.

 

[killdozzer]

Completely agree. The DACs built in to computers, 'phones or tablets are more than good enough for audible transparency, even if far from SOTA. There's therefore no incentive or need to improve what's already perfectly Good Enough.

S

If you allow even a step further, SOTA often equates with sound signature. When you think about it, what is a DAC that is in the state of art? Gear shouldn't be artful. It should just do the job. Far from any art.

A lot of same BB DACs are in today's smart phones as in some more expensive devices.

 

[killdozzer]

I'd say it depends. The dac and audio output on my ipad is more than good enough (provided there's enough power for headphones for example). The audio out on my Dell laptop has some noise in comparison, which is noticeable without music or with quiet passages. I'm pretty sure I would be able to pick them out in a blind test. I agree that many computers and most phones and tablets are audibly transparent by now though.

Yes, there are some.

But sometime people confuse the origin of bad performance (I don't mean you @oivavoi ) For example, if you're not using BT or some other wireless, but go headphone jack cable that splits into two RCA and plug that into an AUX input of you amp or preamp it'll sound like shit. And if the cable is something like 15feet even more so. But that's because of inadequate voltage for the amp input.

I had several people complaining about smart phone DAC in this case and it's not the DAC.

Of course, this type of sound deterioration is prominent and easily audible. Somewhat similar to turning down gain to almost zero.

 

[DanielT]

DACs built into PCs are just god awful. They pretty much all hiss like a pit of vipers. Amir's Dell XPS 8930 still stands at the very bottom of the DAC chart.

Macs, tablets, and phones are usually better though.

Amir's DAC in his Dell XPS 8930 was completely rubbish. Hm, that may be the answer to my question. Why do manufacturers not equip their computers with sensible DACs? They ignore it. Adds no value. The small minority that would like sensible Hifi quality on the analog that comes out of the computer does not outweigh that Dell would equip, at least that model, with a sensible DAC. Dell can do that.That is not the case namely
a technical limitation, but rather a commercial one. Apple as mentioned in this thread has better DAC. Probably better DAC, at least in comparison with Dell XPS 8930

 

[monkeyboy]

If anyone could make a great signal chain it would be one of the motherboard mfgs....maybe they should consider an audiophile line of motherboards....

 

[JJB70]

Perhaps so, I've never used headphones that way, always used the output into an amplifier, and never had a problem. However, this shows that there's nothing wrong with the DAC, which is the topic of this thread, although there may be something wrong, or at least limited, in the capability of the analogue outputs to drive headphones. A different issue.

S.

Indeed, two separate issues. However I can understand why people conflate them. In almost every case when I have spoken to people whinging about their device audio output it has been because they want more volume, however, in many cases they blame the DAC. It may be because of the prevalence of DAC/amplifiers that people lose the distinction. Whereas I can see there are cases where headphone amplifiers are necessary if people have hard to drive headphones or want to lose their hearing, it's pretty rare to get a device with an audibly degraded DAC.

 

[DanielT]

For those of us that use computers, only when we must, a separate DAC is just a preference. Most of my favorite recordings since 2000 were mixed on MacBooks.

Ok but how do you play music? Vinyl? Physical CDs?

What I am in any case interested in is that it would be damn nice and easy to be able to use pad (Android) plus phone for all kinds of surfing plus as a sensible streamer for sound, Hifi sound. It WITHOUT mixing in external DAC. One component less in the audio chain.

By sensible I mean inaudible distortion / noise and straight frequency response in internal DAC in the computer (not separate streamer).

 

[DVDdoug]

The DACs in my current computers sound fine to me. I have the line/headphone output from an "extra" laptop connected to my AVR (I may update to a different computer with HDMI "soon".)

I don't hear any noise or distortion, nor do I hear anything wrong with the frequency response. I have had noisy soundcards in the past. I've never had a frequency response or distortion problem.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Well, I have an opinion! OK, I have lots of them.... But seriously, I have found that if you are in the industry or in Amirs case a reviewer who is well known in the industry, you can contact companies and many times they are VERY receptive to product enhancement. I don't know if Amir has ever tried to contact any of these companies and asked about possibly improving the product. For example, contact a few computer companies and mention that a very good DAC (NOT the best but quite good) with a nice headphone amplification circuit to drive the expensive harder to drive headphones would be a great product for their consumers. Even if it is a side model. For example lets say Dell makes a computer model 123, they then come out with a model known as 123A in which A stands for audiophile and has the nice DAC and headphone amp circuit. This way it can be marketed as a very inexpensive upgrade that people can have. It makes it easy to have upgraded audio. As mentioned, to do it on the motherboard would be so simple even a monkey could do it!

Anyways, I have had good luck with contacting companies when I was younger and talking to them and being generally well received.

I wanted to add they seem to have gone all out for the high end gaming audio.

 

[MCH]

The headphone amp of my 1000eur computer (Microsoft surface pro 2017) sounds many many times better than the headphone amp of my 1700eur integrated amplifier (hegel h90 2019?)

 

[DanielT]

The DACs in my current computers sound fine to me. I have the line/headphone output from an "extra" laptop connected to my AVR (I may update to a different computer with HDMI "soon".)

I don't hear any noise or distortion, nor do I hear anything wrong with the frequency response. I have had noisy soundcards in the past. I've never had a frequency response or distortion problem.

Encouraging words. Because if it's true (I believe you) I would probably actually think about it. There were a number of years since I bought my pad and mobile. It is approaching a purchase of new ones....so....Hm this thread has put ants in my skull. Nice ants though.

 

[JJB70]

LG made audiophile smartphones which offered superb performance but seemed to find little demand for them and we're back tracking before they abandoned smartphones. I think the real killer for a business case to make audiophile computers is that so few want it in an time when wireless has taken over