B&O best audio builder? Your opinion?

[restorer-john]

B&O Were ahead of their time in aesthetics, but way behind in performance for most of their existence.

I've had lots of B&O pass through my hands, have restored and repaired plenty of it, and never kept any for more than a short period.

It was typical weird European design- use of DIN connectors (stupid), strange layouts, poor heat management, poor component choice, very average performance etc. The turntables were works of art to look at, but never came close to a competent Japanese TT in performance and were an absolute nightmare to work on. The cassette decks even worse.

But all that is vintage gear now and I've never been interested in revisiting their "HiFi" after hearing all they had to offer in a dedicated B&O store about 14 years ago. Walked out very underwhelmed.

 

[restorer-john]

Here is my "Trickled down tech from the Beolab 90 and if you can find anything that can compare, Please inform me.

Somebody saw you coming in the B&O shop. Did you buy one of everything?

 

[OG1950XXX]

Somebody saw you coming in the B&O shop. Did you buy one of everything?

Times have changed my friend, I walked out of the B&W store and into the B&O and brought 2 of everything I needed to create my Frankenstein Beolab 90 since I knew it was cheaper too just be minimal, plus at 20% discount. Sorry you didn’t like what you heard, I love the sound so any recommendations as too what might measure up?

 

[OG1950XXX]

You quoted my post and said I was running a risk of them coming after me. I assure you I am not.

Both Amir's review, and my comment, are clearly protected speech. That doesn't stop some unscrupulous actors from trying to use threats of legal action to remove fair comment from the internet, but I don't think B&O has ever been one of those companies. And they're a multi-million dollar business, they don't need you riding to their rescue.

For a lawyer you don’t seem to be what I would’ve expected. I never quoted anything or anyone, you’re a bad liar, but since you’re a lawyer. You say you don’t know anything about this one moment and now you’re obviously in bed with Amir, not literally, in the same camp. They don’t need me, I need them to back me up when we meet again.
An I don’t know anything about that fella who’s got Amir all worked up but I shall.

 

[BDWoody]

I never quoted anything or anyone...

Actually, you did.

B&O best audio builder? Your opinion?

Guys, this post by Ray totally nails it. The thread was finished by the third post. You are evaluating B&O products by your criteria. ... Yeah, but that goes for any product discussion anywhere - especially when someone starts a thread asking for people's opinions on a certain brand, as...

audiosciencereview.com

I'm not sure what you are so angry or confused about, but I think a little time off might help.

 

[antcollinet]

For a lawyer you don’t seem to be what I would’ve expected. I never quoted anything or anyone, you’re a bad liar, but since you’re a lawyer. You say you don’t know anything about this one moment and now you’re obviously in bed with Amir, not literally, in the same camp. They don’t need me, I need them to back me up when we meet again.
An I don’t know anything about that fella who’s got Amir all worked up but I shall.

Quote!!!

 

[NiagaraPete]

I sold B&O through the 80's to mid 90's. Target audience was customers that didn't care what it sounded like.

 

[Joe Smith]

I will say that the two components I have clearly had good build quality as they continue to function and have had 0 service needs - although the amp is showing some signs of age and I would not hook speakers up to it that I care about (I have some cheap baby KLHs that I use for "questionable" amp friends). But the difficulty of anyone but B&O servicing B&O equipment is a turnoff for me. Having an $80 Class D amp that can't be serviced is one thing, having a $1000+ component ditto is another thing entirely.

 

[DSJR]

I love my Beogram 1700 turntable, but when my current cartridges wear out, the cheapest option is now $250 from SoundSmith. Not great. Fortunately it's in my basement system so I only use it on occasion. Love the styling, though. Plays well.

My Beomaster 4000 receiver has some issues, but I still use it as a garage system from time to time. Super hard to service/repair (I've asked various techs, none of which would ever really want to tackle it) and I hate the plug spacing in the back. But again, it's a looker.

I think overall the products that came out in the 70s/80s were at a peak of good build quality with lovely, clean design. Today's B&O feels overpriced and over-styled to me. I think they were good to use back in the day if aesthetics were as important to you as good sound at moderate listening levels, and if you were willing to stay entirely within the B&O product universe and not change your setup very frequently.

I liked the Beomaster 4000 an dloved its FM tuner. It doesn't have fancy bits inside, manuals should be available and surely there's an enthusiastic servoce engineer who can restore it? The 'Master 4400 was 'the one' of that generation though and the sound was more refined (lower IMD was the claim back then).

The 'Gram 1700 was an absolute delight and could easily beat a Rega 2 with a 20E or EN pickup over the conical fitted originally from memory. Only thing to watch (as experienced on many Beograms using this chassis, especially in the 7000 series music centres) is sluggish lifting at side end, as the arm is swept back very quickly and the seemingly vaseline-style grease the lift piston used can all but seize in worst cases causing the stylus to skate back over the record before it finally lifts (easily fixed by the way with some switch cleaner and vigorous exercise of the lift 'piston' (for want of a better word - it doesn't need to be damped at all!). It's a good elegant little deck the 1700 and the DC motor and drive circuits should also be ok longer term (the thing is forty odd years old as it is )

You may find Expert Stylus Company (ESCo) may be able to retip your cartridge to advantage and it may not cost a bomb either. There used to be a gent in germany (Axel) who was good too, replacing the saphire cantilver/line contact diamond assembly to great effect (specialists can buy these cantilever/diamonds as sets from th eusual suppliers I believe) and the re-tipped example looked all but identical to the 'before' shot the owner took, albeit wit new diamond of course. It may be possible to refurbish and/or upgrade the mechanicals for less money than a second mortgage for a Soundsmith (which had to reverse engineer from basics as B&O had destroyed the tooling I gather - silly eejits).

I'm still looking at sets of the active Beolab 4000 lozenges. No idea if I'll ever go that way but i remember these fondly.

 

[DSJR]

I sold B&O through the 80's to mid 90's. Target audience was customers that didn't care what it sounded like.

So did I and had similar findings. HOWEVER, No idea if you found this, but their better models always sounded great in owner's homes, even the PentaLabs which deliberately had bad vertical dispersion. Now I'm feeling ancient and probably am, I'm getting more and more respect for much of the Beo-stuff we sold back then. Who'd have thunk it

No idea about the mad priced modern stuff though...

 

[DSJR]

B&O Were ahead of their time in aesthetics, but way behind in performance for most of their existence.

I've had lots of B&O pass through my hands, have restored and repaired plenty of it, and never kept any for more than a short period.

It was typical weird European design- use of DIN connectors (stupid), strange layouts, poor heat management, poor component choice, very average performance etc. The turntables were works of art to look at, but never came close to a competent Japanese TT in performance and were an absolute nightmare to work on. The cassette decks even worse.

But all that is vintage gear now and I've never been interested in revisiting their "HiFi" after hearing all they had to offer in a dedicated B&O store about 14 years ago. Walked out very underwhelmed.

I have to disagree with you a lot on the above and with respect as always. Unreliable certainly in the late 70's based products, but it was mainly neglected cassette decks and blown Roe encapsulated caps which could cause issues I remember. The decks had excellent suspension, isolation and a much 'cleaner' bass register than a typical wooden-shell direct drive with sh*t Masushita OEM drive which usually hunted badly if not a top model (I love my 1972 Beogram 3000/SP12 and have just waxed lyrical above over the endearing and once cheap 'gram 1700, especially if the cartridge was upgraded to a 20E or EN. The 'Gram 4000s were trouble prone and I gave away (stupid tw*t I was) the one I acquired as I felt the simpler models 'sounded' better for some reason.

I grant you the beomaster 3000 model (slide rules and flip switches) wasn't so hot, but the 4000 was much better and the 4400 excellent. They went into music centres for a while and I agree that few except the 7000 and related models were that wonderful (sticky buttons with that vaseline grease to make them feel better but which dried them out). the stack systems (5000, 5500, 6500 and 7000) got better and better and never had a heat issue as there was a proper fan and air-duct inside the Beomaster unit (compare that with a Musical Fidelity A100 with a noisy fan which kind of blew air around at random inside and out . The sliding door 2300/2500/Ouverture and so on were reliable, did the intended visual job well and actually performed okay as well as sources, only really changing when new CD mechs became available and so on. Again, owners neglected the cassette deck and it was these that usually needed attention I remember. We sold a good few of the 9000 six-CD machines and again, a great FM radio and we never had issues with the CD drive flying back and forth to play the selected disc and it certainly caused a stir. 'Sounded' fine as well I thought.

I grant you their 'linear phase speakers of the late 70s to mid 80s and the 'Red Line' models were sometimes pretty dire (the RL140 was fun but not the smaller ones) and I never understood the powered models sometime being driven from the amp outputs of their music centres (often the 9000 series with sliding doors each side)...

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this int a rant - The use of DIN connectors may have been a pain (I hate ther bloody things), but Naim made then kosher in the UK and ready made cables are a doddle to use for non-we clients. The Powerlink cables for the active speakers had a trigger conductor as well as separately screened L or R conductors too and these cables were only a couple of mm thick. I still have some interconnects I made up with some (home made DIN to RCA) and it was one of the first cables (Belden made) to show me the thickness of the conductor means sweet FA frankly if the LCR is taken into account...

I could write another essay regarding their CRT tellies, but best let them lie now as they're all beyond their natural lives now.

So there

 

[Mart68]

- The use of DIN connectors may have been a pain (I hate ther bloody things), but Naim made then kosher in the UK

Can't count the number of times I've bought some vintage piece and had this:

 

[Joe Smith]

I liked the Beomaster 4000 an dloved its FM tuner. It doesn't have fancy bits inside, manuals should be available and surely there's an enthusiastic servoce engineer who can restore it? The 'Master 4400 was 'the one' of that generation though and the sound was more refined (lower IMD was the claim back then).

The 'Gram 1700 was an absolute delight and could easily beat a Rega 2 with a 20E or EN pickup over the conical fitted originally from memory. Only thing to watch (as experienced on many Beograms using this chassis, especially in the 7000 series music centres) is sluggish lifting at side end, as the arm is swept back very quickly and the seemingly vaseline-style grease the lift piston used can all but seize in worst cases causing the stylus to skate back over the record before it finally lifts (easily fixed by the way with some switch cleaner and vigorous exercise of the lift 'piston' (for want of a better word - it doesn't need to be damped at all!). It's a good elegant little deck the 1700 and the DC motor and drive circuits should also be ok longer term (the thing is forty odd years old as it is )

You may find Expert Stylus Company (ESCo) may be able to retip your cartridge to advantage and it may not cost a bomb either. There used to be a gent in germany (Axel) who was good too, replacing the saphire cantilver/line contact diamond assembly to great effect (specialists can buy these cantilever/diamonds as sets from th eusual suppliers I believe) and the re-tipped example looked all but identical to the 'before' shot the owner took, albeit wit new diamond of course. It may be possible to refurbish and/or upgrade the mechanicals for less money than a second mortgage for a Soundsmith (which had to reverse engineer from basics as B&O had destroyed the tooling I gather - silly eejits).

I'm still looking at sets of the active Beolab 4000 lozenges. No idea if I'll ever go that way but i remember these fondly.

I'll check out cost of retipping via Expert Stylus! Thanks for the "tip." The website is pretty informative. The SoundSmith 20e cartridge is now $280, I see, it's up $30 in the past year.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Quote!!!

View attachment 368431

I am genuinely baffled by this interaction.

 

[dlaloum]

So did I and had similar findings. HOWEVER, No idea if you found this, but their better models always sounded great in owner's homes, even the PentaLabs which deliberately had bad vertical dispersion. Now I'm feeling ancient and probably am, I'm getting more and more respect for much of the Beo-stuff we sold back then. Who'd have thunk it

No idea about the mad priced modern stuff though...

The Penta's are very good - and I picked up a pair for AU$500....

At that price, they will give pretty much anything within 2 or 3x their price a run for their money... whether new or used.

B&O have always charged a premium, and spent more on the materials and aesthetics of their gear, as well as substantial investment in R&D (including on user interfaces, as well as sound quality, integration etc...)

Most of that premium evaporates once they get over 10 years old... and by the time they are 20 years old, they are selling for less than most of the other products with equivalent performance.

There is excellent value to be had.

Right now I have a pair of Penta's allocated as the rear/surround channel of my main listening setup - and moving to a full range speaker for surround has definitely filled out and firmed up the bass of the entire setup - very happy with the results!

 

[kemmler3D]

My opinion on B&O: consistently the best or among the best in industrial design, often by far the best. Often disappointing when it comes to audio quality.

When I was working on headphones, I thought the B&O H8 had the best (to my eye) industrial design, and I recommended we copy their design as much as we could. When I finally got the chance to demo them at CES, I was appalled by the sound. They might have been the worst over or on-ear headphones I demo'd at that show. I mean, I'm still talking about it like 9 years later.

 

[antcollinet]

I am genuinely baffled by this interaction.

I can see why. I would be too.

 

[jacobacci]

We sold a good few of the 9000 six-CD machines and again, a great FM radio and we never had issues with the CD drive flying back and forth to play the selected disc and it certainly caused a stir. 'Sounded' fine as well I thought.

Well, in case anyone wants a 9000 today:

Beosystem 9000c - Recreated Classic | B&O

An icon brought back to life. Paired with the Beolab 28s, we’ve brought the Beosound 9000 CD player to the present.

www.bang-olufsen.com

Same for the Beogram 4000

Beogram 4000c - Recreated limited edition | B&O

A classic. Reborn. Our iconic 1970 turntable Beogram 4000c, recreated for contemporary use in a limited edition.

www.bang-olufsen.com

 

[DSJR]

Well, in case anyone wants a 9000 today:

Beosystem 9000c - Recreated Classic | B&O

An icon brought back to life. Paired with the Beolab 28s, we’ve brought the Beosound 9000 CD player to the present.

www.bang-olufsen.com

Same for the Beogram 4000

Beogram 4000c - Recreated limited edition | B&O

A classic. Reborn. Our iconic 1970 turntable Beogram 4000c, recreated for contemporary use in a limited edition.

www.bang-olufsen.com

Mad bad pricing, but they do a slight cosmetic restyle on the 9000 and lord knows the state of most Beogram 4002s by now (the 4000 was more substantially built but the electronics could be flaky). Let 'em get on with it

 

[kemmler3D]

I recently saw an old 9000 CD player on sale for like $300... almost snapped it up but got into a discussion about whether it was actually a benefit to the decor or not... in the delay, it went to another buyer. Oh well.