Measurements of Sonore microRendu Streamer

[Purité Audio]

John

What a ridiculous reply.

Does peer reviewing require someone submitting alternative measurements?

Did pointing out Amir's original flawed 8dB difference in his measurements require that alternative measurements be done?

If you can't understand the logic and/or the technical points being made then you really can't add anything to the discussion.

John but you are a DAC 'designer ' you must have measured the output of the dacs you 'design' thousands of times, show Amir where he is going wrong.
Keith

 

[Thomas savage]

John

John but you are a DAC 'designer ' you must have measured the output of the dacs you 'design' thousands of times, show Amir where he is going wrong.
Keith

....

 

[lateboomer]

Come on, be a good sport. JKenny is asking reasonable questions. Win win for everyone.

 

[Purité Audio]

Kenny disparages Amir at every oppurtunity , supposedly he is a DAC 'designer ', he should put up or shut up.
Keith.

 

[John Kenny]

It does rather seem that for some, there is no appetite for trying to ensure realistic measurements - audio science, anybody?

I already poste din here that Amir probably has a ground loop & is seeing the result of this in his measurements & now I note iFi/AMR say the same thing as does John Swenson.

 

[Purité Audio]

Then this is your big chance John, to repudiate Amir's flawed measurements.
When will you be able to post them?
Keith

 

[Thomas savage]

So the idea is there is two ground paths creating a loop, the path from USB and the RCA?

Could we not just lift the ground on the DAC.. Just temporary??

 

[amirm]

From your statements, you don't seem to understand what you are measuring & how your measurement configuration differs from a playback config.

Well then educate us please. Also, you asked me a bunch of questions and I answered them. Why did you ask those questions if the answers were not important?

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you can't understand the logic and/or the technical points being made then you really can't add anything to the discussion.

I agree so show us you understand.

 

[amirm]

Thanks for the explanation, Amir. You didn't have a Shakespeare reference, movie references, or memes, but I think you made up for that with actual content.

I'm confident that if your measurements are shown faulty, you will accept that and be happy to correct anything that was done wrong. That's the process, after all; others try the same tests and at some point we hope to get repeatable results.

It's interesting to me that those who dismiss your measurements and techniques also unreservedly accept the least reliable and most error-prone measurement of all: uncontrolled subjective listening. That is exactly what has caused this hobby to be in the state it's in, IMO.

Exactly. It has been a week. The time to measure this system would have taken an hour if that. Yet no one is posting anything. All I see is word arguments. And personal remarks. I have no use for those. We want to discuss data, not yet another theory that has no data whatsoever to back it.

Let's remember that it was one such theory, that Sonore microRendu reduces noise, that got us here. No evidence has been found that it does this. With other power supplies than iFi, it merely matches the noise performance of plain USB connection to the DAC using my supposed dirty mass market HP laptop. If I were them, I would put energy behind showing why this outcome is wrong:

Even on this USB powered DAC that I am using where it could be susceptible to USB power vagaries, there is zero reduction of anything on the noise floor.

If iFi has such high expertise in making measurements, they should help out Sonore and measure their device for them seeing how I am using their DACs and they obvious have those units. They had the time to write that missive. Why not do this simple test and post the results?

Indeed above was the main motivation for me to test the product, i.e. to see if microRendue reduces the noise floor as many people said it would and could. With two different power supplies, it has not done so.

But yes, as I keep mentioning, I very much welcome all data and correction of my work. I have no pride in what I have posted or the information I share. It is data that I have that others lack so it is put forward. If other data disputes or compliments it, all the better.

 

[Thomas savage]

The great thing about data is it has no ego!

We are all about the data and nothing else, that includes egotistically driven word arguments.

So instead of saying ' I think there might be a ground loop' do the tests any help improve the data.

I really can't see the problem ( well I can)

 

[Healthy]

...Indeed above was the main motivation for me to test the product, i.e. to see if microRendue reduces the noise floor as many people said it would and could. With two different power supplies, it has not done so.

Amir you haven't scientifically demonstrated what you claim. The real scientific method would have you replace only the microRendu in your chain. Only after than would you be able to tell what the microRendu does and doesn't do. You claim it doesn't reduce the noise floor.

1. How do you know the microRendu doesn't reduce the noise floor when connected to the iFi power supply?
If the iFi is generating more noise than your measurements are showing, then the microRendu has rediced the noise floor. For all we know the microRendu could be increasing the noise floor with the iFi. But, until you try your measurements with another product we will never know. Sure, you can compare the microRendu to your laptop, but that isn't powered by the same power supply, etc... You need to change one variable at a time. Without this, you are simply saying your specific laptop measures XYZ and the microRendu measures ZYX. You can't make any real statemtements about the product. What if both your laptop and the microRendu reduce noise? You have no idea.

P.S. Your moderator is doing you and your site no favors. Without a change there, this site will remain a circle jerk with a handle full of guys and any work you are trying to do with measurements will easily be discounted because of factors unrelated to the measurements.

 

[amirm]

Amir you haven't scientifically demonstrated what you claim. The real scientific method would have you replace only the microRendu in your chain. Only after than would you be able to tell what the microRendu does and doesn't do. You claim it doesn't reduce the noise floor.

This is not a scientific endeavour. That would be discovery of something unknow. Here, we have a simple situation were manufacturer makes a statement that their product, instead of a computer, lowers the noise floor:

"What makes the microRendu different from a typical computer music server is that it's a purpose built audiophile device. The problem with computer music servers is that they all rely on mass produced motherboards designed for general purpose computing and are built to the lowest possible price point. The microRendu solves this problem by removing the consumer grade computer peripherals and optimizing power supplies where necessary. The microRendu has been specifically built for processing USB audio perfectly. You can also combine the microRendu with an audiophile grade linear power supply to achieve the lowest possible noise floor. "

Here, I did exactly what you said. My computer was replaced by microRendu. The output was that in one case it made the noise floor much higher (30 db higher). And in two other using audiophile grade linear power supply, it did nothing to improve system performance.

The data with iFi power supply also invalidates their statement that they have achieved perfect USB audio. A perfect USB audio device using their own recommended and sold power supply should not have caused a 30 db degradataion.

 

[amirm]

P.S. Your moderator is doing you and your site no favors. Without a change there, this site will remain a circle jerk with a handle full of guys and any work you are trying to do with measurements will easily be discounted because of factors unrelated to the measurements.

Not interested in non-constructive comments about membership and certainly not about management of this forum. Repeat this one more time and you will be out.

Think of your own contributions which so far has been that of a shill for the manufacturer. Stand up for consumers at large. Whose side are you on anyway?

 

[amirm]

1. How do you know the microRendu doesn't reduce the noise floor when connected to the iFi power supply?
If the iFi is generating more noise than your measurements are showing, then the microRendu has rediced the noise floor. For all we know the microRendu could be increasing the noise floor with the iFi. But, until you try your measurements with another product we will never know. Sure, you can compare the microRendu to your laptop, but that isn't powered by the same power supply, etc... You need to change one variable at a time. Without this, you are simply saying your specific laptop measures XYZ and the microRendu measures ZYX. You can't make any real statemtements about the product. What if both your laptop and the microRendu reduce noise? You have no idea.

Do you stick the output of the iFi power supply into your amplifier and listen to that? I assume not. As with my testing, you listen to the output of the DAC, not power supply.

While I will at some point try to quantify the performance of the power supplies, it is unrelated to how these devices are used. The above system produced much elevated noise floor. I don't care if it is microRendu's problem or iFi's. The two of them need to get together and figure it out.

And I did change one variable at a time. I replaced my laptop as a black box, with another black box of microRendu and iFi power supply which was sold as a package by Sonore. That is precisely the scenario everyone is interested in: whether they should go through microRendu instead of using their computer to drive the DAC. It is not possible to power my laptop using iFi, nor is it possible to drive the microRendu using my laptop power supply so your who argument is moot anyway.

 

[Deleted member 65]

@Amir,

I love the (necessary) noise being stirred up in the audio community by your measurements. As an audio consumer I appreciate your efforts.

Thanks & Keep up the good work revealing/challenging products with unsubstantiated claims.

/Take care
Lars

 

[John Kenny]

Well then educate us please. Also, you asked me a bunch of questions and I answered them. Why did you ask those questions if the answers were not important?

Does it really have to be explained that if you want to attempt to measure such low level signals/noise with any degree of veracity then you have to be scrupulous about sources of noise within your measurement configuration. Have you?

You are using single-ended connections between DAC & AP (RCA to BNC) - which means you are using directly connected grounds, not floating grounds. You also have another ground connection through the USB APIB bridge, between laptop & AP. All devices that plug into mains may have ground connections. All of these channels can be ground loops & introduce ground noise issues. What checks or balances have you implemented in your measurement setup to mitigate against possible ground loops? What measurements have you taken to ensure that what you are seeing in your measurements are not due to noise conducted via these ground loops? Any high school student would be asked the same questions based on their presenting such measurements.

I asked you questions to clarify your diagrams. You corrected both your diagrams after I asked what the Wifi connection was.

 

[Deleted member 65]

Does it really have to be explained that if you want to attempt to measure such low level signals/noise with any degree of veracity then you have to be scrupulous about sources of noise within your measurement configuration. Have you?

You are using single-ended connections between DAC & AP (RCA to BNC) - which means you are using directly connected grounds, not floating grounds. You also have another ground connection through the USB APIB bridge, between laptop & AP. All devices that plug into mains may have ground connections. All of these channels can be ground loops & introduce ground noise issues. What checks or balances have you implemented in your measurement setup to mitigate against possible ground loops? What measurements have you taken to ensure that what you are seeing in your measurements are not due to noise conducted via these ground loops? Any high school student would be asked the same questions based on their presenting such measurements.

I asked you questions to clarify your diagrams. You corrected both your diagrams after I asked what the Wifi connection was.

John,

I'm deeply unimpressed by your knowledge, you seem to live out of breathing conflict without substantial knowledge (seen also in other forums). Try some knowledge, evidence & love John, works for me at least!

 

[John Kenny]

Lars, I'm sure if you ask John Westlake you will get the same answer!

 

[Purité Audio]

Show us your measurements John, we are all anxious to see your results.
Keith