Measurements of Sonore microRendu Streamer

[Blumlein 88]

Yes, yes, but where is our Emily Blount?

 

[ceedee]

If you would even try once, Fitz to query/question/challenge anything I say with some shred of technical info or know-how

Please – is this what you mean by "technical info"?

And this is your first mistake, Amir - what Swenson is saying is that the output from the DAC is perceived as lower in noise - in other words with music signals the perception is that everything emerges from a quieter background..

And my favorite:

That is your interpretation of the words "seems to produce lower noise levels in the DAC" - he didn't say lower "noise floor", he said "lower noise levels"
You have interpreted this in your own way to mean "lower noise floor" which he didn't say
So you are measuring your interpretation of what he said, not what he said

I had not even heard of this product until seeing this thread, so I have no dog in this hunt. However, this is the exact kind of meaningless audiophoolery that I was hoping would be absent from this forum. It's laughable that you think that your posts need to be "challenged" with "technical info or know-how." Your tiresome contributions to this thread are transparently argumentative and pedantic (see above). I'm honestly surprised Amir even bothers to respond.

I think we all hope that the manufacturer (or someone) decides to produce measurements at some point, even if they contradict Amir, even though there's nothing to suggest Amir's measurements are faulty. Posting actual data is obviously the only way to bring anything "technical" to the table at this point. Anything else raises the noise floor of the thread (or, results in "higher noise levels" if you prefer -- since the two are apparently different).

P.S. One more thing: for the love of god, it's spelled a-n-d. Reading posts lacking in actual content is made all the more tedious by your gross misuse of the ampersand. Thanks.

 

[John Kenny]

Here's what is being spoken of - there's a difference between a static noise floor, measured in the presence of a test tone like the 12KHz seen on Amir's measurements & a noise floor that fluctuates in the presence of a dynamic music signal. A fluctuating noise floor has detrimental effects on auditory perception but it's not until it's removed/reduced that these effects are noticed - in the form of an perceptually quieter background & as a result perceptually better dynamics. You can experience this yourself by trying the Intona USB isolator which reduces the noise coming through the USB link. The uRendu seems to address this noise at the source PC, the uRendu which is the USB connection the USB audio device is plugged into. By preventing/reducing this electrical noise in the USB DAC a perceptible improvement in sound quality is perceived

This is what Swenson is referring to when he states that it "SEEMS to produce lower noise levels in the DAC" - this is a difficult aspect to measure & no one has come up with a way to measure this yet but it is perceivable & will be seen in the many reported listening impressions, if you are bothered looking. Hence Swenson follows on with this "The exact mechanism for this is not well understood at this time."

Anyway, you are following the lead given here in this thread to ridicule & insult rather than to ask questions or actually try to learn something/find the possible truth in all of this.

I expect further ridicule & insults based on what I just posted which will not be a surprise but you really have to ask yourselves - is this what is the norm on this forum? Is this what you want new readers to view/experience? It ain't very edifying when every second post is devoid of technical argument/points & simply just insults.

BTW, what are you talking about in my use of &? I don't recall using them

 

[March Audio]

The iFi Ipower is an SMPS with a floating DC output. When this floating DC is connected to a mains grounded device through the connection to the laptop (if it isn't also powered through floating DC) or through the Audio Precision, a leakage current can be measured which bounces up & down at the frequency of the mains - as we see in Amir's measurements

Have a read of "Isolated Laptop power supplies"
"When connecting the laptop to peripheral equipment (such as a microphone, or amplifier output) some noise is introduced because the floating laptop ground being pulled down to real ground potential causes a voltage to be induced across the capacitor. This in effect causes the whole laptop to bounce up and down at 50/60Hz (the bounce can be from few volts to over 100V). How much the laptop potential varies depending on the power supply design. In some cases the way the power supply is plugged to wall can have considerable effect on the bounce (the Y capacitor can be wired between output and one of the mains connector pins, if that pin where the capacitor is connected to live you get largest leakage and of that gets connected to neutral you get almost no leakage)."

The ridicule, insults & unprofessional language evident on this thread really does present a view of an open-minded & healthy forum to all those people looking in, right? A forum that they are only dying to join for it's helpful & honest level of discussion & it's search for truth, right?

Thanks JK, you have once again demonstrated you don't know what you are talking about.

You don't understand what a Y capacitor is or where it is in the circuit. Excuse the pun but "why" do you think I mentioned the lack of earth connection on the psu?

So quit the googling, you are not competent in this field.

Secondly another point that has been mentioned but you ignore is if you were correct (haha) any single ended hifi that has a connection to ground somewhere would suffer the same problem. Hence the psu would still be totally unsuitable. It's not just due to the AP.

You are ridiculed because of your repeated disruptive argumentative uninformed behaviour. No-one wants to listen to you. Don't you get it? People want you and your BS to go away.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

That is your interpretation of the words "SEEMS to produce lower noise levels in the DAC" - he didn't say lower "noise floor", he said "lower noise levels"
You have interpreted this in your own way to mean "lower noise floor" which he didn't say
So you are measuring your interpretation of what he said, not what he said

John, when you pull up to a stop light, do you question it? Do you argue that the shade of red isn't accurate?

Tim

 

[John Kenny]

And the usual baseless insults ensue as predicted. Keep it up guys it exposes your motivations & the general attitude of this forum.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

John, when you pull up to a stop light, do you question it? Do you argue that the shade of red isn't accurate?

Tim

Amir, you're being so tolerant of Kenny that you're passively abusing everyone else who comes to this board. I get the desire for democratic process, but seriously, man, it's way past time to kick him to the curb for good. He's not only pointlessly argumentative, he's senselessly disruptive and has clearly misrepresented his expertise, as in he acts like he has some. A long string of profanities directed at everyone here would be no more damaging to this board than his behavior. Please...PLEASE, get him out of here.

I can't imagine that anyone who either contributes to or is able to learn from this forum would object.

Tim

 

[March Audio]

And the usual baseless insults ensue as predicted. Keep it up guys it exposes your motivations & the general attitude of this forum.

JK, you have repeatedly demonstrated an argumentative, uninformed and disruptive input to discussions. You just go round and round in circles offering zero useful contribution.

My motivation is for you to go away and judging on others comments they share this opinion.

I openly ask for the mods to turn you off permanently.

 

[alfe]

Not nice guys you want to cut his income.

 

[RayDunzl]

Amir, you're being so tolerant of Kenny that you're passively abusing everyone else who comes to this board. I get the desire for democratic process, but seriously, man, it's way past time to kick him to the curb for good. He's not only pointlessly argumentative, he's senselessly disruptive and has clearly misrepresented his expertise, as in he acts like he has some. A long string of profanities directed at everyone here would be no more damaging to this board than his behavior. Please...PLEASE, get him out of here.

It takes two to tango.

it takes two to tango
phrase of tango

1. 1.
   informal
   both parties involved in a situation or argument are responsible for it.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It takes two to tango.

it takes two to tango
phrase of tango

1. 1.
   informal
   both parties involved in a situation or argument are responsible for it.

So you're suggesting we all just ignore him? Fair enough, but we all know how well that works with trolls on internet forums.

Tim

 

[amirm]

And the usual baseless insults ensue as predicted. Keep it up guys it exposes your motivations & the general attitude of this forum.

The general attitude of this forum is to rely in data and valid research as performed by AES, ASA, IEEE Spectrum, etc. You have given an exception to these rules since you joined to my personal detriment. I have lost count of how many times I have defended you being here. Yet you go on slapping me in the face and put out theories and technical arguments that would get you thrown out of any discussion among engineers. And this kind of commentary.

There are plenty of forums that cater to you. No need to participate here. I will be terminating your membership now.

 

[John Kenny]

Come on, Tim, I'll do the Fandango to your Tango - that way we don't have to touch one another - oh the horror of that image

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The general attitude of this forum is to rely in data and valid research as performed by AES, ASA, IEEE Spectrum, etc. You have given an exception to these rules since you joined to my personal detriment. I have lost count of how many times I have defended you being here. Yet you go on slapping me in the face and put out theories and technical arguments that would get you thrown out of any discussion among engineers. And this kind of commentary.

There are plenty of forums that cater to you. No need to participate here. I will be terminating your membership now.

And the crowd cheered.

Tim

 

[Blumlein 88]

Here's what is being spoken of - there's a difference between a static noise floor, measured in the presence of a test tone like the 12KHz seen on Amir's measurements & a noise floor that fluctuates in the presence of a dynamic music signal. A fluctuating noise floor has detrimental effects on auditory perception but it's not until it's removed/reduced that these effects are noticed - in the form of an perceptually quieter background & as a result perceptually better dynamics. You can experience this yourself by trying the Intona USB isolator which reduces the noise coming through the USB link. The uRendu seems to address this noise at the source PC, the uRendu which is the USB connection the USB audio device is plugged into. By preventing/reducing this electrical noise in the USB DAC a perceptible improvement in sound quality is perceived

This is what Swenson is referring to when he states that it "SEEMS to produce lower noise levels in the DAC" - this is a difficult aspect to measure & no one has come up with a way to measure this yet but it is perceivable & will be seen in the many reported listening impressions, if you are bothered looking. Hence Swenson follows on with this "The exact mechanism for this is not well understood at this time."

Anyway, you are following the lead given here in this thread to ridicule & insult rather than to ask questions or actually try to learn something/find the possible truth in all of this.

I expect further ridicule & insults based on what I just posted which will not be a surprise but you really have to ask yourselves - is this what is the norm on this forum? Is this what you want new readers to view/experience? It ain't very edifying when every second post is devoid of technical argument/points & simply just insults.

BTW, what are you talking about in my use of &? I don't recall using them

Another one of those you can't measure it but you hear it effects. How do you design for these and how would know your design was effective?

Also how can you criticize measures of something you can't measure?

And why can you not measure this? Use signals of different levels and see how the noise floor varies. That actually is an area I intend to investigate when I have time.

EDIT :
Oops guess I'll miss out on the evasive non answers in reply since his membership status has changed.

 

[Thomas savage]

The general attitude of this forum is to rely in data and valid research as performed by AES, ASA, IEEE Spectrum, etc. You have given an exception to these rules since you joined to my personal detriment. I have lost count of how many times I have defended you being here. Yet you go on slapping me in the face and put out theories and technical arguments that would get you thrown out of any discussion among engineers. And this kind of commentary.

There are plenty of forums that cater to you. No need to participate here. I will be terminating your membership now.

Oh, it's 3 am here. Great to know it's going to be a brand new day and not the same one repeated over again. In this story I am Emily blunt ( sorry guys, I can shave and put on a dress. I mean it's a Tuesday so not normal for me to do this in the week but anything for you guys!).

Do I have to change my avatar now 'The Joker' has left?

 

[Sal1950]

And the crowd cheered.

Tim

AMEN

 

[Purité Audio]

I should have never have sold him that first M2Tech HiFace, if only I had known what it would lead to!
Keith.

 

[dallasjustice]

Amir,
The great teacher from AMR/IFI seems interested in showing you how you've measured a ground loop. But I haven't seen any measurement he's done on the output of a DAC fed by a microrentdue powered with the ifi PSU. What type of measurement would be needed to show you've measured a ground loop and not a DAC in a normal playback chain? When will you get your ethernet hub back from Sonore? I would like to see measurements from others too. I think BE and others could do a great job measuring as well.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f...ower-much-ado-about-nothing-28982/#post555855

 

[ceedee]

Does this mean they aren't going to post measurements? I'm confused.

A reply from the above thread responding to firedog asking when their measurements will be posted:

Hi,

We have already shown measurements that illustrate the sensitivity of the typical Audio Precision setup to any form of earth loop or noise current flowing in the ground line.

Our aim in posting this lengthy paper (hence it has been divided into parts) was less so for a specific test, but more for the several out there - with varying and conflicting results we lack the time and resources to comment on all of them (and any future ones too). This is why we took the time to go in-depth and outline the backdrop as to how we go about measuring. And at the end, we wanted to explain how we arrived at our measurements for the iPower as this is our tried and tested methodology.

It is instead to illustrate the potential pitfalls in doing such tests, as well to provide tools to spot problems in measurements posted and a target result which they should be able to replicate, if tests are implemented and set up similarly.

This way those who wish to take measurements and who publish them have in effect a solid base line against which to compare and which to replicate.

Hope this clarifies.

Wouldn't the measurements already be done??

BTW, I love how they call that forum post a "paper."