The impossible decision of buying an AVR/AVP!

[Fahzz]

New Denons?

 

[Vacceo]

I have been in the same search for a long painful time waiting through all the glitches and kinks… wish I had jumped on the htp-1 wagon when I could… oh well.

I was shopping around for a 3700 as a stop gap to use as pre and I was told (maybe slipped) from a reputable shop in holland that the new receivers are a couple weeks out. Keep in mind this past week has been vacation time for all. Usually there are the normal non disclosures in place to prevent early leaks. I have been researching daily any info on the 3800 and was happy to see the pic posted above. I hope it’s true.. I decided I’ve waited this long why not wait a couple more weeks….

Strange that Sound United hasn't previewed anything at all.

 

[FrantzM]

Dirac doesn't need to develop a DEQ equivalent - that feature is unrelated to room correction. Some processors support a separate equal loudness control already, like the HTP-1, so there's at least one processor with both Dirac and equal loudness. Too bad there's no supply to buy any HTP-1s now.

DEQ seemed like a poor implementation of a good idea when I last tried it - especially since the boosting of satellites couldn't be toggled separately from the boosting of bass, not sure if that ever changed.

The surrounds issue as mentioned in @Chromatischism's post is easily fixed.
I would be pleased to know other than Denon/Marantz and its Audyssey implementation what other manufacturer has a decent (a subjective call, I know) and competitive solution, aside from the unobtainium HTP-1?
DEQ is not perfect by any means, it remains an effective solution to a real problem confronted by most audiophiles.

Peace.

 

[Peluvius]

Did you make a decision yet? I am interested to see what you end up with. I have been at these crossroads twice in the last 5 or six years and most recently I found it hard to tell the difference between most of the big brands lineup when just using the pre-outs for multichannel (I don't use the onboard amp). I ended up going with the cheapest option that used the same processors which saved me about 3k on the flagship model but had the same internal processing for pre-outs. I also use actives for the most part.

The key differences that are actually noticeable for most people for these electronics relate to use of the system for critical stereo listening.

The next move for me will be to get Dirac into the home theatre setup, which will most likely be through miniDSP post processor.

 

[Chromatischism]

If you can, I would pursue Dirac for multi-channel home theater in the AVP and not in an external unit. It will save a lot of hassle and potentially money, too.

 

[Sancus]

A Denon with Dirac and 4-sub DLBC would be an HTP-1/SDP-55 killer even if it doesn't have the full 16 channels. Not too concerned about DEQ myself, I listen at the same volume +/- 3dB all the time pretty much.

 

[Chromatischism]

A Denon with Dirac and 4-sub DLBC would be an HTP-1/SDP-55 killer even if it doesn't have the full 16 channels. Not too concerned about DEQ myself, I listen at the same volume +/- 3dB all the time pretty much.

I just had a thought. Imagine this...you use your presets for Audyssey and Dirac and A/B switch...

 

[dlaloum]

I have an old Denon, the AVR-X3400H. Serves me very well. To me the most compelling thing about Audyssey is Dynamic EQ. I consider it mandatory for any Audio system. I will not buy an AVR , actually any system without it. It is IMHO a game changer.
Dirac could be as good as it gets. Its calibration is for a given SPL; if there is not a way for the settings to vary with respect to SPL, you cannot get the best from your system at different, various listening levels. Fletcher Munson curves are facts. Not opinions or preferences, they're hard baked in the way Humans hear. Calibration should change automatically with Volume level. Strangely, it seems only Audyssey provides such. The Audyssey MultiEQ PC App goes further and allows you to fine-tune the degree of compensation of Dynamic EQ.

Not wishing for Dirac on the new Denon (or any other) AVR. Unless Dirac develops a DEQ equivalent.

Peace.

I've mentioned it before...

Dirac does the Room EQ - in terms of loudness curves, Dirac receivers use the Dolby Licenced version of this functionality.

In the Dolby Surround setup, (at least on the Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer's) you can enable or disable "Loudness Management" and "Center Spread"

For best results with movies (which do have loudness reference points!) - both should be on

With Music - which does NOT have loudness reference points - just as with the Audyssey Dynamic EQ, the results vary from recording to recording - depending on how well matched to movie reference levels the music is!

On a well set up system, I prefer Dolby PLII with Dynamic EQ, to Dolby Surround with Loudness on

On the other hand, Dynamic EQ can only be used if Audyssey is active - if you turn off Audyssey (which in my system resulted in superior sound...) - then you lose Dynamic EQ as well...

On those older systems, you did have Dolby Volume settings which purported to do the same thing... but it did not do it as well as Audyssey/Dynamic EQ did.

On the Newer systems Dolby Surround with Loudness on and Dirac is giving me the best results I have had to date.

P.S. - I run DTS feeds through Dolby Surround as my preferred mixer - so I get consistent functionality across the board.

 

[dlaloum]

Dirac doesn't need to develop a DEQ equivalent - that feature is unrelated to room correction. Some processors support a separate equal loudness control already, like the HTP-1, so there's at least one processor with both Dirac and equal loudness. Too bad there's no supply to buy any HTP-1s now.

DEQ seemed like a poor implementation of a good idea when I last tried it - especially since the boosting of satellites couldn't be toggled separately from the boosting of bass, not sure if that ever changed.

Loudness is available as a function of Dolby Surround -comes with the licence - so I would expect any AVR with Dolby Surround would have the loudness function.

 

[NikolasA]

my guesstimate is that the new units when they arrive will have similar or a little higher price and Dirac will be offered as a paid optional upgrade.

scouring for any info at all.... I stumbled on the Masimo earnings call transcript from ten days ago that makes for an interesting read, not wanting to hijack the thread... (I possibly could make a new thread titled glimpse into Sound united future)... but here is the link sound united parent company Masimo earnings call transcript
quote:

On the consumer side, I don't believe we should be in any business that has that low of a margin. I think if when you make incredibly valuable products like Bowers and Wilkins, Marantz, Denon, these brands do, I think they should be getting a premium that will improve the margins, they have been raising their prices to adjust for the increased costs that they've been seeing both in COGS and shipments. But our plan is to work with them to improve their margin greatly.

So expect higher prices going forward... there was supposed to be an investor day with lots of announcements for all their products...that has been pushed back to December.
I hope that doesn't affect new products that come out soon with the aim to capitalize in the last quarter...

 

[dlaloum]

my guesstimate is that the new units when they arrive will have similar or a little higher price and Dirac will be offered as a paid optional upgrade.

scouring for any info at all.... I stumbled on the Masimo earnings call transcript from ten days ago that makes for an interesting read, not wanting to hijack the thread... (I possibly could make a new thread titled glimpse into Sound united future)... but here is the link sound united parent company Masimo earnings call transcript
quote:


So expect higher prices going forward... there was supposed to be an investor day with lots of announcements for all their products...that has been pushed back to December.
I hope that doesn't affect new products that come out soon with the aim to capitalize in the last quarter...

We may see some more extreme market segmentation - with more features being stripped out of the mid-market models (X3700) and reserved for the top end (X6700)...

Or perhaps an increase in the use of optional software.... system comes with base PEQ, and you buy your Audyssey or Dirac module (and get the choice?!) - for an extra $500....

Heck these are SOFTWARE platforms - maybe you even get to choose whether you want to purchase THX, IMAX, DTS licences for it - a modular software ecosystem, where you choose (and pay for!) the plugins you want.

With the right ecosystem - these could be subscription based.... (and could result in an AVR becoming a useless brick when it reaches EOL and its platform is no longer supported)

Could be an interesting few years...

 

[Fahzz]

I just bought a Denon 3700 refurb direct from Denon for $999. I generally don't buy refurbs, but at that price I took a chance. We'll see how it goes-maybe cleaning out for new models???

 

[Vacceo]

We may see some more extreme market segmentation - with more features being stripped out of the mid-market models (X3700) and reserved for the top end (X6700)...

Or perhaps an increase in the use of optional software.... system comes with base PEQ, and you buy your Audyssey or Dirac module (and get the choice?!) - for an extra $500....

Heck these are SOFTWARE platforms - maybe you even get to choose whether you want to purchase THX, IMAX, DTS licences for it - a modular software ecosystem, where you choose (and pay for!) the plugins you want.

With the right ecosystem - these could be subscription based.... (and could result in an AVR becoming a useless brick when it reaches EOL and its platform is no longer supported)

Could be an interesting few years...

To be honest, I can live without any streaming capabilities on an AVP nor any Bluetooth support. For those elements, you can easily get a dedicated streamer like an Nvidia Shield (and we´re going really fancy here, you can get far more affordable electronics). The AVP I like the best as reference of what I like is the McIntosh MX100, too bad you have to pay the MacTax.

 

[dlaloum]

To be honest, I can live without any streaming capabilities on an AVP nor any Bluetooth support. For those elements, you can easily get a dedicated streamer like an Nvidia Shield (and we´re going really fancy here, you can get far more affordable electronics). The AVP I like the best as reference of what I like is the McIntosh MX100, too bad you have to pay the MacTax.

I too could do without the streaming, bluetooth etc.... but not willing to pay the MacTax.
My primary source is a home build HTPC - from whence I can play whatever I want.... I need the AVR to decode & Mix the channels, and do DRC. (mostly because of the licencing issues linked to HDMI, Dolby, DTS, etc... - otherwise it could all be done by the PC!)

 

[ElectricKoolAid]

If you can, I would pursue Dirac for multi-channel home theater in the AVP and not in an external unit. It will save a lot of hassle and potentially money, too.

As someone who's done this both ways, I would agree it's much easier to just get an AVP with Dirac built in than trying to run it externally. It can be done but has many limitations and added complexity.

 

[Chromatischism]

As someone who's done this both ways, I would agree it's much easier to just get an AVP with Dirac built in than trying to run it externally. It can be done but has many limitations and added complexity.

You used the 88a's?

 

[ElectricKoolAid]

You used the 88a's?

I actually used the MiniDSP NanoAVR. I ran an HDMI splitter, so the HDMI video feed from my Nvidia Shield could go straight into my display (NanoAVR didn't allow for 4K HDR) and then the other HDMI carried the audio to the NanoAVR which then went to my AVR.

 

[Peluvius]

If you can, I would pursue Dirac for multi-channel home theater in the AVP and not in an external unit. It will save a lot of hassle and potentially money, too.

I agree it is the easy route but there just seem to be so few choices there which support full range and Bass management options. The AVM 70?

You are paying so much just for the ability to implement Dirac in AVR (at least in Australia)....Well more than implementing on a mid tier AVR using pre outs and a DDRC-88BM.

 

[dlaloum]

I agree it is the easy route but there just seem to be so few choices there which support full range and Bass management options. The AVM 70?

You are paying so much just for the ability to implement Dirac in AVR (at least in Australia)....Well more than implementing on a mid tier AVR using pre outs and a DDRC-88BM.

Presumably you are talking specifically about DLBC (bass management) rather than Dirac Live - as the Dirac Live capabilities are available in very reasonably priced AVR's from Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra.... (I have the Integra DRX 3.4)

 

[Peluvius]

Presumably you are talking specifically about DLBC (bass management) rather than Dirac Live - as the Dirac Live capabilities are available in very reasonably priced AVR's from Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra.... (I have the Integra DRX 3.4)

Yes, apologies my terminology may not be entirely accurate. I thought Durac Live was the collective name applicable to all domestic software applications;

Dirac Live adds value to any sound system, be it an entry-level soundbar, a high-end home theater system, or a professional recording studio. To offer our business partners flexibility for licensing Dirac Live, we’ve developed three tiers.

— Ready: The system is prepared for Dirac Live Room Correction. Just purchase an end-user license to activate it.

— Limited bandwidth: The system can perform room correction up to 500 Hz, and the target curve can be tailored within this range. This correction is sufficient to deal with the bass and voice areas but not the entire audible spectrum. Upgrade Limited bandwidth to full bandwidth.

— Full bandwidth: This is the top tier of the room correction feature. It allows the system to be corrected across the entire frequency range while giving you full control of the target curve.

You can choose between the stereo and the multi-channel version if you purchase a Dirac Live Room Correction Suite license that runs on your PC.

And then to this add Bass management module. I think the AVRs you mention have limited range capability? If you want access to the full range and Bass management your options are more limited.