Maybe in theory but in a real listening room you can easily locate a subwoofer that is crossed at 80Hz.
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Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review
- Thread starter amirm
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Which points to the 80Hz LFE crossover, being one driven by marketing/sales, rather than the actual margin of audibility for directional bass...
And really, the main channel speakers need to go down to at least the limit of directional bass.... so a 60Hz or 50Hz bass extension is what is needed in the mains .... Full range mains are the real solution, with subs suplementing the bottom 2 or 3 octaves only... say 15Hz to 60Hz... also subs designed for the lowest frequencies, tend to not do so well at the higher end of the bass range... so limiting them to the range they do best is optimal that way too!
And once you have them down at that low end - is there a point to directional bass?
But if you have a bunch of satelite speakers, as many do, with bass extension limited to somewhere between 60Hz and 120Hz ... and the subs have to fill in the gap up into the range where bass is directional - then Directional bass with subs is very useful.... but it seems a fundamentally flawed paradigm.
From my experience, in smaller room I was definitively able to locate 1 sub that I had rolling off steep at 100 hz and was crossed at 80hz or even 60hz. Even when I had another smaller sub in the same room, it was still obvious where is the big one (was temporary setup so did not let the little one drag the big one). With 2 same subs located symmetrically by FWs, it was no longer possible to locate subs. In big loft with 4 subs, can't locate anything either. This is not using directional bass, as it has its own shortcomings.
While it would be hard (impossible?) to tell direction of 80hz sound itself, the pressure it creates (especially if you run your subs +15db hot) is what IMO I felt in that setup. Once you have equal pressure coming from at least different sides, the localization goes away.
While it would be hard (impossible?) to tell direction of 80hz sound itself, the pressure it creates (especially if you run your subs +15db hot) is what IMO I felt in that setup. Once you have equal pressure coming from at least different sides, the localization goes away.
Yeah - that's what I meant with technical mistake. Beatles also did a lot of this - they didn't know better at these times and experimented with stereo.
You can put your drums and bass to one side of the panorama and still divide that low frequency load to both of your speakers. But nowadays that's way easier as it was 50 years ago.
We can hear directivity through level difference between our ears and time delay between our ears. Therefore the about 17cm distance between our ears are the "baseline".
And as we are VERY good in hearing loactions with wide band signals - at a wavelength of 4,3m ... you can't locate it. No way.
But you can locate a woofer that is WAY too loud. (15-20dB - cause it plays way too high!). A distorting woofer or one who makes noises.
When you cross a woofer with +20dB level at 80Hz with a 12dB/Oct filter it still plays loud at 300Hz with all of it's distortions way higher.
Worst thing for a filter you could do is setting woofer and mains at 80Hz 4th order filter and then boost the woofer 15dB ... what a mess ...
I did plenty woofer integrations in the 60-100Hz area and you NEVER could locate the subwoofer. When you really need so high low frequency level you need to do your woofer integration and then EQ BEFORE the filter the amount of LF you need!
And as we are VERY good in hearing loactions with wide band signals - at a wavelength of 4,3m ... you can't locate it. No way.
But you can locate a woofer that is WAY too loud. (15-20dB - cause it plays way too high!). A distorting woofer or one who makes noises.
When you cross a woofer with +20dB level at 80Hz with a 12dB/Oct filter it still plays loud at 300Hz with all of it's distortions way higher.
Worst thing for a filter you could do is setting woofer and mains at 80Hz 4th order filter and then boost the woofer 15dB ... what a mess ...
I did plenty woofer integrations in the 60-100Hz area and you NEVER could locate the subwoofer. When you really need so high low frequency level you need to do your woofer integration and then EQ BEFORE the filter the amount of LF you need!
How much will this cost? You just buy these things inside the AV10’s on screen menus?
These tools need the PC/Mac version of Dirac to work. So you go to the website, create and account and then buy Dirac. They email you a redemption code which you use and then you login each time to use it.
multichannel_guy
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Wait, this processor doesn't have manual PEQ for sure??? That is a deal breaker. If that's the case, I guess I will be sticking with my Yamaha prepro. Hell no, I am not sacrificing my manual PEQ.
I couldn't give 2 shts about dirac.
Not sure about the AV10, but all Dirac AVR's disable PEQ when Dirac is enabled.
Dirac allows you to set a target curve per speaker or per group of speakers, and you can have as many control points as you want (I don't know what the limit is) - but most certainly you could use it as a sophisticated PEQ, with far more channels than anything other than specialised software/hardware.
However, if you want to go with manual EQ, I refer you to the AV10 manual page 193 & 194... although it is a bit "last millenium".
Monoprice HTP-1 doesn't.
Newman
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My understanding is that Audy MultEQ-X allows this.
My older Yamaha V3900’s manual PEQ is pathetically limited. I sure hope it has been much improved.
In that case use MultEQ-X.
It does not offer PEQ, but you likely know already that, if you use MultEQ X ($200), you could import PEQ parameters into X and it would take it and calculate the FIR filters accordingly, FIRs are inherently better than PEQ (that is IIR basically, like Yamaha's), it is of course more complicated than that, but.... DL uses mixed types, so its filters uses both IIR and FIR
FIR vs IIR filtering
In this application note, we will explain the difference between FIR ("finite impulse response") and IIR ("infinite impulse response") filtering.
Yes that is a particularly interesting implementation, includes loudness too...
I wonder whether it will lead the way, or remain an odd outsider...
It does offer a "Graphic Equaliser" function... which is what many people mean when they say PEQ (yeah I know, it ain't a true parametric equaliser, which is quite a different beast) - see the manual page 193 & 194It does not offer PEQ, but you likely know already that, if you use MultEQ X ($200), you could import PEQ parameters into X and it would take it and calculate the FIR filters accordingly, FIRs are inherently better than PEQ (that is IIR basically, like Yamaha's), it is of course more complicated than that, but.... DL uses mixed types, so its filters uses both IIR and FIR
FIR vs IIR filtering
In this application note, we will explain the difference between FIR ("finite impulse response") and IIR ("infinite impulse response") filtering.www.minidsp.com
It has nine fixed frequency bands, and you can adjust the level for each to your hearts content.... as long as you aren't in pure direct, dirac, or audyssey modes
Neither does Stormaudio. You can use PEQ before or after Dirac.
multichannel_guy
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There is "YPAO" on the cheap Yamaha receivers and "YPAO RSC" on the higher end Yamaha receivers and prepros. YPAO RSC deploys FIR.It does not offer PEQ, but you likely know already that, if you use MultEQ X ($200), you could import PEQ parameters into X and it would take it and calculate the FIR filters accordingly, FIRs are inherently better than PEQ (that is IIR basically, like Yamaha's), it is of course more complicated than that, but.... DL uses mixed types, so its filters uses both IIR and FIR
FIR vs IIR filtering
In this application note, we will explain the difference between FIR ("finite impulse response") and IIR ("infinite impulse response") filtering.
multichannel_guy
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Yamaha's manual PEQ is a lot better than the archaic Denon/Marantz GEQ. I thought they were going to implement it on the newer Marantz products based on some interview I saw with the Denon/Marantz spokesperson. I guess they didn't.
I know it has RSC that is an improved version to the original YPAO, but FIR?
That would be a huge surprise as I have never read anything about that anywhere. Got a link to the source info?
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They don't need to, they already had MultEQ Editor and now MultEQ X. PEQ is of course better than GEQ though. Gene used to like Yamaha YPAO R.S.C. with manual PEQ but since he has the AV10, he is now impressed with the results he got using MultEQ X.
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