• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

About design philosophy _ are minimalists right or not ?

Waxx

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2021
Messages
1,994
Likes
7,938
Location
Wodecq, Hainaut, Belgium
If you're specifically wondering about the designs of Nelson Pass, you might ask my buddy 6L6 on DIYAUDIO, as he's well-connected in that regard. But so far as I can see, NP creates unusual circuits as a sort of thought exercise, and achieving the lowest possible distortion is not necessarily his goal.
Very often his circuits have strong harmonics, because he wants them there. It's part of his "signature sound" to have high harmonic distortion (warm sound) but low general noise. They are not high fidelity in the sense that is promoted here, but they do sound good for those who want that (and that is a relative large group). That is what he says himself. If you want a high sinad absolute neutral sound, his designs are not for you.
 
OP
G

gino1961

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
553
Likes
154
One mosfet makes a good marketing story, and a section of the market demand it (see Nelson Pass's presentation of the analog crossover for the LXmini at AmpCamp explaining demand for it from the far east for example.) Better performance and/or lower cost for the extra components.
Analog design courses will usually start with the simplest arrangement and cover its deviations from 'ideal' behaviour. After that come the ways that these can be addressed. The 'one transistor' approach has little to do but find a more 'ideal' (and expensive) transistor, possibly with matched transistors for each channel (more expense.)The cheaper, more production-friendly approaches usually add 'complexity' in the form of more cheap components, stopping when enough issues have been addressed to get sufficient performance. Similarly there may be complexity added to make it self adjusting, rather than needing adjustment of trim pots etc. on the production line that could drift out of adjustment over the lifetime of the product. Then there's the power supply - the single transistor stage wil have poor power supply rejection so may need a more complex low noise PSU (more active components, but you still have your 'single transistor' design story.) You can add more to make your circuit robust - RF filters, ESD protection, output protection - go read the Topping L30 thread to see why the last 2 might be important!
If you want to see the process starting very simple then adding improvements you could look at Pass's Zen Variations - starting with a single transistor power amp and improving its performance step by step. Or read Self's various books on analog design.
hi and thanks again If low HD is important a single transistor is not a valid solution
Moreover as you very well say the PSRR is very low and this fact makes the power supply design more challenging but of course still feasible
The HD issue instead remains even if i guess it could be tamed with an optimal choice of working conditions ? more current through the transistor to make it more linear
Leaving the one transistor option aside i run some sim with the already mentioned two bjts Sziklai pair
As i said i have seen some popularity during the '70s when quite good preamps used it
I dont know about the PSRR of this circuit I guess it should be better than the single common emitter because there is feedback
from wikipedia
George Clifford Sziklai (July 9, 1909 – September 9, 1998) was a Hungarian-American renowned electronics engineer,[1] who among many other contributions to radio and TV electronics invented the transistor configuration named after him, the Sziklai pair
i have read somewhere that his goal was to reduce distortion in signal transmission
Again i dont know the performance of the pair in terms of PSRR They could indeed be poor
Given that it is merely a combination of one npn and one pnp the possible combinations of bjts are infinite
Parts and values selection would be of paramount importance but a task not out of this world
The presence of feedback will help a lot in keeping HD and Zout decently low
Low HD low Zout good FR good slew rate possibly low noise ... what more is needed ?
 
Last edited:
OP
G

gino1961

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
553
Likes
154
If you're specifically wondering about the designs of Nelson Pass, you might ask my buddy 6L6 on DIYAUDIO, as he's well-connected in that regard. But so far as I can see, NP creates unusual circuits as a sort of thought exercise, and achieving the lowest possible distortion is not necessarily his goal.
Hi thank you very much
I know very well the Bride of Zen design having had one years ago I remember it sounded fine
Power supply needed some attention but nothing impossible
Also the gain was a little too much for my needs making the volume control not easy
like the a little high Zout around 1kohm if i remember correctly The lower the better of course
But i did not like completely the idea of having a residual HD
I like when the distortion spectrum is clean A preamp should not generate harmonics It is not a musical instruments
Tubes can be nice but i get a feeling that some fine detail is masked Solid state is more true to the source
what you get out should resemble as much as possible to what you send in Both impulse and square wave I know it is trivial still it makes sense to me
That must be the goal always
I should start to sim again soon
 
Last edited:
OP
G

gino1961

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
553
Likes
154
Hi @gino1961 personally I don't agree with your working hypotheses. I don't know what formal electronic education you have, so I may be teaching you to suck eggs.
Hi almost zero education I have no hopes to design something from the scratch My approach is quite trivial
I read many reviews of TOTL preamps When i find a consensus about a commercial unit i look for its schematic
I skip the tone control section entirely and i focus the volume control and the following output stage
I try to simulate the output stage to see mainly gain and HD performance with LTSpice
Then i start changing parts and value and watch how HD changes
Im my silly mind any circuit can be improved a little even those that are already quite good
I know it is stealing but i have zero commercial interest
More forgivable of taking an opamp put it in resin and a black box and sell it for 50 times its price
When you start with design, you analyse the three ways to wire a transistor and learn the limitations of each. Then you analyse multi-transistor combinations such cascode, Darlington pair, current mirror etc. and their benefits and limitations. Then onto combinations and chains of gain elements.
I don't believe that there's a "golden design" and I also have no specific love or loathing for 1970s designs.
love is not science Lets say that i admire simplicity a lot The complexity scares me I always to try to make things as simple as possible
These days state of the art modelling and measurements are where "golden designs" come from, not picking one "active mode" and tweaking it. If the best transfer function requires 400 transistors, then so be it. Component count simply has no validity as a measure of performance. More components though lead to costs. They also lead to an increased statistical likelihood of failures. So making things as simple as possible, but no simpler is the correct approach.
clealry i cannot pretend to get the best with 2 transistors Just something surprisingly good
Probably to get the best i should look at opamps like i have already been advised
I see some high end manifactures switching to opamp coming from quite complex discrete topologies
And they products are hugely expensive
 

Mulder

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 2, 2020
Messages
642
Likes
892
Location
Gothenburg, Sweden
THDistortion should be below 0.01%. Doing any better is technically fine but has no audible consequences.
Slew-rate: when you can reach 50kHz -0.5dB at max output voltage slewrate is more than sufficient. This can be achieved with most circuits, simple or complex and is never really an issue.
Crosstalk... >40dB is good enough. Just play one channel with 40dB attenuation and the other with no attenuation.
Listen with speakers and headphones and see if you can actually hear something on the attenuated side.
I once took a test and I had a very hard time to identify any distortion less than 0.5 %. But I don´t remember if it was THD only. At what level will IMD reach hearing threshold?
 
Last edited:

wwenze

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2018
Messages
1,343
Likes
1,921
Complicated tools allow the task to be simple

Simple tools require the user to be complicated
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
16,099
Likes
36,610
Location
The Neitherlands
I once took a test and I had a very hard time to identify any distortion less than 0.5 %. But I don´t remember if it was THD only. At what level will IMD reach hearing threshold?
Difficult to say... with test tones it will be easier to hear than in music where a lot of masking is going on.
 

egellings

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
4,101
Likes
3,347
Hi
I apologize in advance for a question that might seem a little confused (like i am)
Let me start by saying that I agree on the paramount importance of measurements in the sense that if a component measures well it cannot sound bad
Perhaps it can be conceded that something measuring so-so sounds pleasant
I'll get to the point. I'm a bit obsessed with line preamplifiers. I have read tests, downloaded diagrams, and listened to many units during years.
One thing I noticed is the extreme difference in the level of complexity of the circuitry.
I have seen circuits with only one active component per channel and others with 20 or more that perform the same function in practice.
I would like to understand in practice whether the so-called circuit minimalism is a valuable design approach and those who complicate it are wrong or minimalism has limits that cannot be overcome and complexity is, let's say, a necessary evil.
How much the following principle is valid ?

To be more specific and talking about measurable performance I wonder if very low distortion and noise, the peculiar qualities of good sound, can be achieved also with very simple circuits.
I'm rather confused because often the simplest circuits, if done well, make a very favorable impression on listening.
Are those who complicate things that could be simple wrong ?
Some problems simply don't have simple solutions. Either that, or simple solution may work but a bit more complex one may work better. Use as much complexity as needed and no more.
 

MaxwellsEq

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
1,774
Likes
2,696
love is not science Lets say that i admire simplicity a lot The complexity scares me I always to try to make things as simple as possible
If simple is adequate, that's fine, but engineering is full of problems where a simple solution is not sufficient. There are no simple ways to build a data center, a nuclear power station, an air traffic control system, a subway system, an MRI scanner. The list of engineering things where simple is hopelessly ineffective far outweighs the number where simple is sufficient. If you are scared of complexity you would not cope with an engineering job.
 
OP
G

gino1961

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
553
Likes
154
I think that all started reading this 1994 paper by Mr Nelson Pass https://www.passdiy.com/project/preamplifiers/bride-of-zen
This is the second installment of a trilogy of construction projects centered around the performance obtainable from absolutely minimalist circuit
then i developed the feeling that slightly more complex circuits could even improve on the already very decent THD, the PSRR and lower the Zout of the BOZ project to provide an overall better line stage
clearly the vast majority of solid state designers are not stimulated at all by this challenge
i think that at least it could be educational for me
 
Last edited:
OP
G

gino1961

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
553
Likes
154
If simple is adequate, that's fine, but engineering is full of problems where a simple solution is not sufficient. There are no simple ways to build a data center, a nuclear power station, an air traffic control system, a subway system, an MRI scanner. The list of engineering things where simple is hopelessly ineffective far outweighs the number where simple is sufficient. If you are scared of complexity you would not cope with an engineering job.
i see perfectly your point complex tasks require complex solutions Fine
question is designing a line stage a complex task ?
 

MaxwellsEq

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
1,774
Likes
2,696
i see perfectly your point complex tasks require complex solutions Fine
question is designing a line stage a complex task ?
Designing anything requires knowledge. Sometimes you can get that from academic study. Sometimes years of practical making gets you there. In my experience, there is always someone cleverer than you or with more experience. It's hubris to assume you know everything. Never stop learning is my motto, and I've designed and operated some very complex global systems.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,840
Likes
37,785
I think that all started reading this 1994 paper by Mr Nelson Pass https://www.passdiy.com/project/preamplifiers/bride-of-zen

then i developed the feeling that slightly more complex circuits could even improve on the already very decent THD, the PSRR and lower the Zout of the BOZ project to provide an overall better line stage
clearly the vast majority of solid state designers are not stimulated at all by this challenge
i think that at least it could be educational for me
I owned one of the Zen power amps. https://www.passdiy.com/project/amplifiers/the-zen-amplifier

Quite the simple circuit for the output stage.
1713560507662.png
 

LTig

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
5,860
Likes
9,622
Location
Europe
I think that all started reading this 1994 paper by Mr Nelson Pass https://www.passdiy.com/project/preamplifiers/bride-of-zen
Me too in 1997. I tried a similar approach with bipolar transistors and found out fast that to get sufficient gain for negative feedback you have to add current sources, for better performance get a differential input stage, then improve it with Wilson current mirrors, and still the DC performance was meagre and very temperature dependent. Looking at the last circuit I'd tried I realized that it makes much more sense to use an opamp which contains all this and more in a thermocoupled package with tightly matched components, and all this for almost no money. I just kept a power Mosfet for sufficient output current.
 

wwenze

Major Contributor
Joined
May 22, 2018
Messages
1,343
Likes
1,921
The simplicity of those Zen amps stands in stark contrast to the price tag. The comparatively very complex class D amplifiers are, paradoxically, usually much cheaper.
Replace "price" with "performance"
 
OP
G

gino1961

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
553
Likes
154
Designing anything requires knowledge. Sometimes you can get that from academic study.
Clearly you are very right But being ignorant i am scared by complexity even if it amazes me All those parts on a board sometimes seem a work of electronics art
I think that simulation softwares like LTSpice (that i understand is quite popular) are a very handy and powerful tool to get an idea of the performance of a circuit
I have already seen how changing Vsupply bias and so on effect distortion
I can calculate a very basic circuits but not all In the old times equipment were sold with the schematic
I have found schematic of interesting commercial units from 1975 to 1990 Lot of them
The idea is to sim a gain stage of one of those units that received positive comments in the reviews of the time
I could change some operating parameters and see how the distortion varies and also square wave response i guess
i cannot sim the Power supply noise rejection of the circuit Even if they say it is possible
Sometimes years of practical making gets you there. In my experience, there is always someone cleverer than you or with more experience. It's hubris to assume you know everything. Never stop learning is my motto, and I've designed and operated some very complex global systems.
i am not very smart I got my degree just copying from textbooks and notes without realizing what i was really doing
I had a good collection of problems already solved At the exams if i was lucky i could find one similar If not i was completely lost
But it was enough to get a degree in chemical engineering
If i were good at math i would have studied electronics Or physics Physics is fantastic
 
Top Bottom