Is there any benefit from woofers exceeding 5 inches, if matched with sub?

[samysound]

Makes sense. On the reflected sound topic, is the reflected sound considered bad? Earlier I had no curtains on my big glass door. Once I placed curtains (not thick ones due to WAF), the acoustics became better. But a bit of reflections should be ok than a dead room, right?. When I look at the Genelecs table, at 3,5 meters, it is still showing light greenish yellow :-D. when I compare 8340 to 8351, the difference seems to be not much.
View attachment 99288

I tried sitting less than 2 meters listening distance and I prefered the sound at 3,5 meters rather than 2 meters. I do not know, probably the GLM set the speakers considering 3,5 meters.

I think the only way you will really know is to try the larger speaker (8350) in your room. Crank it up with some dynamic movie or music and a volume matched comparison with your 8340 and both with subs crossed over. Are you able to borrow or do a in home demo with 8350?

 

[valerianf]

"Why do you need 2 10" woofers on your tower to get full range sound? "
Tower speakers are using 2x woofers to get +3dB (doubling) efficiency in the low frequencies.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Okay... 2-ways have some inherent compromise re: mid-bass size. You either get good midrange behavior or low end performance but rarely both.
Smaller mid-bass drivers generally let you cross over a bit higher before a severe directivity mismatch sans waveguides which generally improves tweeter distortion figures, but they don't extend as low (somewhat dependent on cabinet design) and their bass distortion performance is not great at high SPLs, even when crossed over with a sub or 2. Plus, given their smaller area, they're not going to be quite so punchy as a larger driver. Larger drivers extend lower, have much greater surface area, and behave better re: bass distortion, but like you'd expect they start to beam lower meaning for good dispersion you have to cross the tweeter over lower which can (if not designed carefully) end up increasing tweeter distortion.

A sub can help with smaller 2-way midbass drivers, but IMO, 3-ways with a dedicated low driver is just a better solution in general. An 8" woofer plus 3-4" mid driver crossed over around 300-500Hz is just plain going to work better than an 8" mid-bass crossed over with a 1" tweeter at like 2KHz.



I feel that we should add an asterisk here with this one... This is the distortion vs frequency plot from the 308P, which has the larger woofer and should perform better at low frequencies (all others being equal). It's very likely the 305P performs quite a bit worse re: LF distortion.

For last 6 months have jbl studio 290 mated with Infinity RC263 center and Rhythmic LV 12. I cannot imagine any bookshelf can match a well designed 3 way with 8 inch woofers.

 

[valerianf]

"I cannot imagine any bookshelf can match a well designed 3 way with 8 inch woofers. "
Agreed, my tower speakers are similar.

 

[levimax]

After messing around for years with 2 way speakers and subs I finally put together some almost full range 3 way speakers (12 inch, 4 inch, 1.25") and am much happier. The ultimate would be adding a couple subs. I think a lot of people buy into getting a sub to convert a small 2 way to full range but it really doesnt work out that well. I think most would be better of with 3 ways with some decent low distortion bass extension first and then add subs later if needed.

 

[richard12511]

For last 6 months have jbl studio 290 mated with Infinity RC263 center and Rhythmic LV 12. I cannot imagine any bookshelf can match a well designed 3 way with 8 inch woofers.

Have you heard the D&D 8c?

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Have you heard the D&D 8c?

Have you heard the D&D 8c?

Not yet. My purchases made during JBL and Infinity sales. I left Magnepan. Will never go back. Speaker with Spinorama design sounds enveloping. I have never owned center that comes close to RC263. Of course, this is my first 3 way center.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I looked up D&D 8c. I will never pay that much money for a speaker.

 

[richard12511]

Not yet. My purchases made during JBL and Infinity sales. I left Magnepan. Will never go back. Speaker with Spinorama design sounds enveloping. I have never owned center that comes close to RC263. Of course, this is my first 3 way center.

I don't have a RC263, but I love my R263. Stupid good value at those sale prices!

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I don't have a RC263, but I love my R263. Stupid good value at those sale prices!

Buy when on sale. If you don't like so cheap you can give it to your kid or pet.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I should add I use Anthem 520. Purchased in spite of Amir review. I simply needed it's room correction software. David Rich technical articles on anthem's room correction is fascinating. Only software to date that truly integrates sub.

 

[nickaz99]

After messing around for years with 2 way speakers and subs I finally put together some almost full range 3 way speakers (12 inch, 4 inch, 1.25") and am much happier. The ultimate would be adding a couple subs. I think a lot of people buy into getting a sub to convert a small 2 way to full range but it really doesnt work out that well. I think most would be better of with 3 ways with some decent low distortion bass extension first and then add subs later if needed.

Interesting you say this. I'm relatively new to the audio world and am planning shortly to mate my focal chorus 716s with a pair of svs s2000s. Generally use for music and movie/tv streaming. Am I heading down a road of future dissatisfaction?

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Interesting you say this. I'm relatively new to the audio world and am planning shortly to mate my focal chorus 716s with a pair of svs s2000s. Generally use for music and movie/tv streaming. Am I heading down a road of future dissatisfaction?

No you are not. Buy an Anthem for room correction. Or paradigm subs. They use Anthem room correction.

 

[levimax]

Interesting you say this. I'm relatively new to the audio world and am planning shortly to mate my focal chorus 716s with a pair of svs s2000s. Generally use for music and movie/tv streaming. Am I heading down a road of future dissatisfaction?

There are certainly many different ways to go with speakers that will work and the Focals look nice... I have no personal experience with them. This site has given me some new perspectives on speakers especially about off access performance around the crossover. The problem with 6.5 inch mid woofers is that they start to beam before you can crossover to the tweeter so the off access around the crossover is a struggle to engineer. For many bookshelves 6.5" also struggles with low bass and you get fairly high distortion as well. Looking at the Focals I don't think bass response is going to be an issue but not sure how they deal with the crossover to the tweeters. 3 ways are not the only solution to this issue but it is so much easier to integrate a 4" mid with a tweeter and also a dedicated woofer takes a load off of the mid-range and will have less distortion. I see companies making very expensive 6.5" mid woofers and Ribbon tweeters to try to overcome these issues when to me a 3 way solution can use more economical drivers and get better performance (I am DIY so easy and economical are priorities... but so is performance). You might want to research some 3 ways but Focals have a good reputation as do SVS subs so I doubt you will be dissatisfied but for the kind of money you are spending their are a lot of options. Hope this helps, good luck.

 

[nickaz99]

There are certainly many different ways to go with speakers that will work and the Focals look nice... I have no personal experience with them. This site has given me some new perspectives on speakers especially about off access performance around the crossover. The problem with 6.5 inch mid woofers is that they start to beam before you can crossover to the tweeter so the off access around the crossover is a struggle to engineer. For many bookshelves 6.5" also struggles with low bass and you get fairly high distortion as well. Looking at the Focals I don't think bass response is going to be an issue but not sure how they deal with the crossover to the tweeters. 3 ways are not the only solution to this issue but it is so much easier to integrate a 4" mid with a tweeter and also a dedicated woofer takes a load off of the mid-range and will have less distortion. I see companies making very expensive 6.5" mid woofers and Ribbon tweeters to try to overcome these issues when to me a 3 way solution can use more economical drivers and get better performance (I am DIY so easy and economical are priorities... but so is performance). You might want to research some 3 ways but Focals have a good reputation as do SVS subs so I doubt you will be dissatisfied but for the kind of money you are spending their are a lot of options. Hope this helps, good luck.

Thank you levimax.

I'm new enough where I don't have much experience with other speakers, at least ones that aren't complete trash. I've been happy with my focals but have yet to push them hard; have an infant at home and my wife seems to want him to sleep.

Crossover seems to be such a controversial topic with more opinions than commenters! It seems most are concerned with cross over to the subwoofer but few discuss the crossover to the tweeter. I don't know the crossover to the tweeter either. Will have to read up about mid woofer beaming.

This site has been a wonderful source of education. Thanks to all involved and your responses.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Thank you levimax.

I'm new enough where I don't have much experience with other speakers, at least ones that aren't complete trash. I've been happy with my focals but have yet to push them hard; have an infant at home and my wife seems to want him to sleep.

Crossover seems to be such a controversial topic with more opinions than commenters! It seems most are concerned with cross over to the subwoofer but few discuss the crossover to the tweeter. I don't know the crossover to the tweeter either. Will have to read up about mid woofer beaming.

This site has been a wonderful source of education. Thanks to all involved and your responses.

Trust me, with an infant and wife, your days of "pushing" your speakers are over.

 

[detlev24]

[...] Will 8340 still produce distortion at 74db at a distance of 3,5 meters? [...]

Don't worry about your 8340A_s: an excellent 6.5" woofer is quite a sweet spot for 2-way bookshelf loudspeakers!

A good crossover for these would probably be around 80 Hz to 120 Hz [the latter especially, if you keep the subwoofers at their current locations]; I would suggest you choose a frequency between room modes and as high as possible within these limits, i.e., where the respective frequency responses match your measurement signal's target SPL [as closely as possible] for LPF | HPF setup. If you knew which filter types your AVR uses, that would be great! Choose a filter as steep as possible, that anechoically sums to a flat frequency response; see here.

By doing this, your 8340A would play a lot louder at lower distortion, which would improve on clarity and minimal ringing in the bass region - above the usual subwoofer frequencies. Small(er) LF/MF drivers (or not enough of these in terms of total cone area) usually lack in these regards; and common subwoofers wouldn't be able to improve anything from ~100 Hz to ~300 Hz.

One way to do things would be to create that MONO channel with your subwoofers [as described for your other inquiries here and here], further manually time-align it to your main loudspeakers (if required) and choose a crossover as previously suggested. If you decide for this way, using the '2x4 HD' or any other external DSP [incl. software], all internal processing of your subwoofers should be bypassed [besides individual volume controls].

Thanks! But looking at the specs of 8340, at 3,5 meters, it should still have 101 DB max SPL (110 DB at 1 meter as per spec). Is my math correct?

99.12 dB SPL @ 3.5 meters.

 

[Sprint]

Don't worry about your 8340A_s: an excellent 6.5" woofer is quite a sweet spot for 2-way bookshelf loudspeakers!

I'm really relieved.

A good crossover for these would probably be around 80 Hz to 120 Hz [the latter especially, if you keep the subwoofers at their current locations]; I would suggest you choose a frequency between room modes and as high as possible within these limits, i.e., where the respective frequency responses match your measurement signal's target SPL [as closely as possible] for LPF | HPF setup. If you knew which filter types your AVR uses, that would be great! Choose a filter as steep as possible, that anechoically sums to a flat frequency response; see here.

Thanks a lot! Awestruck by your knowledge. I checked my AVR specs. The filter characteristic says
Filter Characteristics
(fc=40/60/80/90/100/110/120/160/200 Hz)
H.P.F. (Front, Center, Surround, Surround Back).......12 dB/oct. L.P.F. (Subwoofer) .....................................................24 dB/oct.

So I should the above in minidsp right? This should be my task during Christmas break

99.12 dB SPL @ 3.5 meters

I am relieved as well. It seems my Genelecs have enough SPL at 3.5 meters. I never go above 75 DB average and only in explosion scenes, my set up hits 85-88 db but then I guess it is subs and the monitors are still 75 DB in those scenes. Thanks for the site to calculate SPL. Very helpful.

 

[Sprint]

I think the only way you will really know is to try the larger speaker (8350) in your room. Crank it up with some dynamic movie or music and a volume matched comparison with your 8340 and both with subs crossed over. Are you able to borrow or do a in home demo with 8350?

Unfortunately not. I did compare 8330 and 8340. 8330 also did a great job for 3,5 meters distance. However the 8340 had more oomph.

 

[Ron Texas]

Some of this thread brings to mind the old saying, "if it ain't broke then don't fix it." Speakers when pushed to the limit sound awful, so you can't miss it. The same goes for amplifier clipping. If your system can play loud enough for you without distress, then stop worrying about the size of the drivers.