Not trying to be arrogant here, but who listens to this?

[DJBonoBobo]

 

[oivavoi]

In my opinion, art does not have to be marketable. It can also live in niches. For many years, when we had a larger apartment, we held house concerts of contemporary music, for the enjoyment of us and our friends and to encourage young talent. We also did art exhibitions without commercial intentions.

Fully agree. I have myself been involved in commissioning several works from contemporary composers, as I've been singing in various semi-professional choirs for the last 15 years. I don't mean that all music needs to make its way to the top lists on Spotify. That would create a very boring and homogeneous musical world.

My point is rather that it's healthy for composers and performers to keep alive the idea that their music should on some level be able to communicate with and move listeners. This may seem obvious, but it's not always the case in the work of contemporary composed music. When a work of art can be fully dependent on guaranteed "success" through commission, it's probably easier to forget that.

In the world of fiction literature, for example, people still read novels. So novelists generally try to communicate with readers and have not broken too much with traditional storytelling, even though public funding remains essential for many. But nobody reads poetry anymore. So poetry as an art form has become almost completely dependent on public support, at least where I live. This creates a self reinforcing circle where poets don't feel a need to write in a way which will move the common reader, and rather want to impress the few people who read poetry in the funding institutions. This is a simplification of course, but there is some truth to it.

My wish would be for composed contemporary music to move closer to how things work in the world of the literary novel. But I'm not sure what the ideal system for achieving that would be...

 

[Mnyb]

For every person who is an appreciative student of the genre, there are a dozen chin-pullers pretending to admire something out of social pressure (and sometimes the emperor has no clothes - ahem high end audio - and it's 1 or zero:100). That's just the absurd condition of humanity.

If I’ve have to attend special training ( brainwashing, peer pressure) to be able to “understand” some music as a soduko or crossword or formula it takes away all pleasure listening to it.

I see it as a emperors in shiny clothes all the way down holding this up both performers and listeners it’s a social game.

Music must produce an immediate gut feeling and foot taping in me , or a melody or a strong rhythm .
I do liste to some jazz that are quite sparse and improvised and weird electronic music to so I’m not completely lost
But even “weird” music produces some feeling of joy and amazement in me , if it’s actual music not musical wanking in emperor clothing .

I do listen to bebob and beyond sometimes, it interesting but the least admirable thing they do is repeating some figure 6000 times over before letting the melody and rhythm flow again what are they using.

So i’m With op no one should listen to this.

 

[computer-audiophile]

... no one should listen to this.

Arrogance should actually be excluded if you look at the thread opening. It was more a question of lack of understanding, if I did not get it wrong.

 

[Rednaxela]

Correct. If you’re with OP indeed you genuinely want to know what it is that makes the piece worth sitting through.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Correct. If you’re with OP indeed you genuinely want to know what it is that makes the piece worth sitting through.

I heard this piece live twice and found it interesting in this concert setting. Those were beautiful evenings with inspired friends. It's not one of my favorite Messiaen pieces though. I have countless recordings of him on CD and vinyl and with a simple search for 'Messiaen' on Deezer-HiFi I can find 300 albums straight away.

When things interest me, I usually try to deepen my knowledge. For example, I once attended a lecture by a Messiaen specialist and wrote down the following (automatic translation)

"I found Scott Perkins' lecture yesterday about Olivier Messiaen's relationship to America particularly exciting, with which he participated in the supporting program of the MEETINGPOINT MUSIC MESSIAEN for the concert in January. You have to know the following: Only five years after the premiere of the "Quartet to the End of Time” Messiaen completed his opulent Turangalila Symphony, which incorporated many of the aesthetic influences of American music typical of the popular musicals of the time.

Incidentally, I am always impressed by the special ability of many US academics to deliver excellent didactic and at the same time excitingly entertaining lectures. Scott Perkins' vivid lecture helps me to relate even more to the great music of Olivier Messiaen. A mountain in Utah was even named after him, Mount Messiaen.

As part of his professorship at DePauw University Indiana, the musician and lecturer Scott Perkins is touring Europe with a group of 20 prospective musicologists - with the theme "Messiaen's Quartet for the end of time". The group will also be at the concert next Friday."

 

[Daverz]

If I’ve have to attend special training ( brainwashing, peer pressure) to be able to “understand” some music as a soduko or crossword or formula it takes away all pleasure listening to it.

I see it as a emperors in shiny clothes all the way down holding this up both performers and listeners it’s a social game.

Music must produce an immediate gut feeling and foot taping in me , or a melody or a strong rhythm .
I do liste to some jazz that are quite sparse and improvised and weird electronic music to so I’m not completely lost
But even “weird” music produces some feeling of joy and amazement in me , if it’s actual music not musical wanking in emperor clothing .

I do listen to bebob and beyond sometimes, it interesting but the least admirable thing they do is repeating some figure 6000 times over before letting the melody and rhythm flow again what are they using.

So i’m With op no one should listen to this.

I have no problem with people disliking this music, but I am really bothered by this kind of anti-intellectual preening.

 

[Mnyb]

As for the original piece in question, it sounds like the bastard-child of cold war psyop stuff and "nonconformist" modern art. Basically the musical equivalent of "The Embrace."

Maybe some people will say its "cultured and sophisticated" but really its classical music after its come down with Alzheimer's. Thinking more literally I'd imagine that is what a piano might sound like if it came flying down from the sky and plopped into the bottom of a canyon. Given the title and inclination for juxtaposition in modern art and music maybe that is what he was really trying to convey, but we missed it

I liked that sculpture

 

[computer-audiophile]

Have found a photo to illustrate #187 on my PC.

 

[krabapple]

As for the original piece in question, it sounds like the bastard-child of cold war psyop stuff and "nonconformist" modern art. Basically the musical equivalent of "The Embrace."

Maybe some people will say its "cultured and sophisticated" but really its classical music after its come down with Alzheimer's. Thinking more literally I'd imagine that is what a piano might sound like if it came flying down from the sky and plopped into the bottom of a canyon. Given the title and inclination for juxtaposition in modern art and music maybe that is what he was really trying to convey, but we missed it

You seem unfamiliar with the history of classical music, and certainly ignorant of anything to do with the 'original piece in question'. There is nothing even remotely 'cold war' or 'psy-op' or 'nonconformist modern art' about Messiaen's work. He was a devout French Catholic , conservatory trained under the famed organist/composers Dupre and Widor, and his music was basically an expression of both his religion and awestruck wonder at his God's creation. He also had synaesthesia -- to him , pitches and chords had 'colors'.

*You* missed it. Not everyone has.

 

[danadam]

Topic for attention

One of the main reasons I got into Roon was music discovery. Both genres I listen to already, but also new genres/artists. I fell over this music (on the radio but still) one day, and I’m presumable just not smart or sophisticated enough to understand the music. It sounds like some random guy sitting down just hammering aimless away on the piano

Are any of you listening to this kind of music (what (sub)genre is it?), and what exactly are you enjoying in the music? I’m serious and don’t want to put anyone down, I’m just very curious, as I don’t understand it and want to learn how and why other people listen to this kind of music.

Thanks!

Assuming you are old enough, isn't there any music you like now, which you didn't/wouldn't like when you were young? How would you explain to your younger self, why you listen to it now? Maybe it's a similar thing?

 

[ahofer]

But there are actual objective underpinnings for why we find things melodic and others not

I don't think so, unless you freeze our tastes in time, and even then, no. Tastes have evolved significantly over time, largely thanks to composers who push the rules. See comments about Beethoven above and/or substitute any groundbreaking composer since..

 

[Daverz]

It's been a few years since I listened to Turangalila, so I thought I'd give the Previn recording a listen to refresh my memory of the piece. I'd forgotten what great fun this music is, and in Previn's hands it's almost a summer pops piece (well, maybe not all 80 minutes of it).

\

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

You seem unfamiliar with the history of classical music, and certainly ignorant of anything to do with the 'original piece in question'. There is nothing even remotely 'cold war' or 'psy-op' or 'nonconformist modern art' about Messiaen's work. He was a devout French Catholic , conservatory trained under the famed organist/composers Dupre and Widor, and his music was basically an expression of both his religion and awestruck wonder at his God's creation. He also had synaesthesia -- to him , pitches and chords had 'colors'.

*You* missed it. Not everyone has.

He was active in the time period when this was quite en-vogue. I have studied classical music and theory some time ago. Whether it had any influence, or it was down to his mental state I don’t know as I don’t like this sort of composition style… at all. If you do, great. I’m. It here to say what you should like. But to me and many others it’s objectively bad no matter how it’s sliced. Doesn’t mean I hate him or everything he may have composed, but that doesn’t mean I have to show deference, either.

 

[krabapple]

If I’ve have to attend special training ( brainwashing, peer pressure) to be able to “understand” some music as a soduko or crossword or formula it takes away all pleasure listening to it.

I see it as a emperors in shiny clothes all the way down holding this up both performers and listeners it’s a social game.

Music must produce an immediate gut feeling and foot taping in me , or a melody or a strong rhythm .

You've never come to admire music over time that at first made little impression?

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

I don't think so, unless you freeze our tastes in time, and even then, no. Tastes have evolved significantly over time, largely thanks to composers who push the rules. See comments about Beethoven above and/or substitute any groundbreaking composer since..

There are actually common patterns seen across many cultures when it comes to how music is structured as there are neurological underpinnings for this, much like we have octaves that reflect how we hear frequency. Obviously there is substantial and broad subjectivity, but once it has no pattern or structure it doesn’t sound like music to most people outside of any context. Even machinery can sound musical due to its repeating patterns. Here it’s hard to find any sort of structure to even judge it as such.

 

[computer-audiophile]

It's been a few years since I listened to Turangalila, so I thought I'd give the Previn recording a listen to refresh my memory of the piece. I'd forgotten what great fun this music is, and in Previn's hands it's almost a summer pops piece (well, maybe not all 80 minutes of it).

\

Very nice. I don't have these. I'm listening to this version right now:

 

[krabapple]

He was active in the time period when this was quite en-vogue. I have studied classical music and theory some time ago. Whether it had any influence, or it was down to his mental state I don’t know as I don’t like this sort of composition style… at all. If you do, great. I’m. It here to say what you should like. But to me and many others it’s objectively bad no matter how it’s sliced. Doesn’t mean I hate him or everything he may have composed, but that doesn’t mean I have to show deference, either.

It's impossibly 'objectively bad', or else you simply don't understand what 'objectively' means.

Deference is not called for, but perhaps humility? It can't be you, it must be him?

 

[krabapple]

It's been a few years since I listened to Turangalila, so I thought I'd give the Previn recording a listen to refresh my memory of the piece. I'd forgotten what great fun this music is, and in Previn's hands it's almost a summer pops piece (well, maybe not all 80 minutes of it).

\

This landmark recording was also mixed in quadraphonic back in the day, and was re-released as a 4 channel DVDA in the early 2000s. Mainly that just opens up the ambience of the recording, it's not like pianos go circling around your head (what a lot of surround fans prefer)

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

It's impossibly 'objectively bad', or else you simply don't understand what 'objectively' means.

Deference is not called for, but perhaps humility? It can't be you, it must be him?

No, I dont hate all his other work, now that I can remember hearing it years ago when I studied music. This was linked above, and it’s actually good even if I don’t like the style. It has structure to it.

But that piece above by the OP has no real structure. Yes it can be hard to define it, but most people would just be confused if you show them that excerpt with no context.