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Repeatable process to create "magical" sweet spot?

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In your 2 channel setup, assuming your gear can achieve it, can you please share the steps that you take to successfully and repeatably create a centered listening position that possesses the following qualities:
  • Unwavering, consistent, balanced phantom center image perfectly weighted in the middle all the time, balanced at all frequencies.
  • Deep, Layered, 3D sound stage extending behind the speakers and rear wall, and, well behind your head. You can clearly perceive that sounds in the sound stage are in front of you, behind you, behind the speakers.
  • Wide sound stage where sounds and sense of space seem to emanate well outside the left and right speaker boundaries
  • Tall sound stage where capable tracks unfold with spatial effect seemingly higher than the ceiling in the room (song I that feel has a "tall" sound stage, Burial - Antidawn)
I seem to get it right sometimes and I am in heaven, but then some days, on some tracks, I can't quite get there and I start messing with micro-adjustments for speaker toe in/toe out, fore/aft placement, sub crossover,level, phase and position, and even sound treatment adjustment/additions.

For instance, earlier this week, I had the magic going and made a few positional adjustments, and lost the magic. The sound stage illusion that I was immersed in collapsed and I was frustrated. It seems like every tiny tweak makes some change. I'd like to stop thinking about it and just "arrive" and enjoy.

Hope you can help!
 
Last edited:

Tangband

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In your 2 channel setup, assuming your gear can achieve it, can you please share the steps that you take to successfully and repeatably create a centered listening position that possesses the following qualities:
  • Unwavering, consistent, balanced phantom center image perfectly weighted in the middle all the time, balanced at all frequencies.
  • Deep, Layered, 3D sound stage extending behind the speakers and rear wall, and, well behind your head. You can clearly perceive that sounds in the sound stage are in front of you, behind you, behind the speakers.
  • Wide sound stage where sounds and sense of space seem to emanate well outside the left and right speaker boundaries
  • Tall sound stage where capable tracks that unfolds with spatial effect seemingly higher than the ceiling in the room (song I that feel has a "tall" sound stage, Burial - Antidawn)
I seem to get it right sometimes and I am in heaven, but then some days, on some tracks, I can't quite get there and I start messing with micro-adjustments for speaker toe in/toe out, fore/aft placement, sub crossover,level and position, and even sound treatment adjustment/additions.

For instance, earlier this week, I had the magic going and made a few positional adjustment, and lost the magic. The sound stage illusion that I was immersed in collapsed and I was frustrated. It seems like every tiny tweak makes some change. I'd like to stop thinking about it and just "arrive" and enjoy.

Hope you can help!
If you want to go further in loudspeaker installing, I recommend you to learn tunemethod to be longtherm satisfied, without the need for endless adjustments of the loudspeakers.
 
OP
DeepCuttaBeats
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If you want to go further in loudspeaker installing, I recommend you to learn tunemethod to be longtherm satisfied, without the need for endless adjustments of the loudspeakers.
Tunemethod? A quick search here returned: "tunemethod by ear ( listening after the clearest pitch of the tunes when following each instrument playing )"

That does not sound repeatable. Not sure I know what that means. Any other ideas :)
 
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MaxwellsEq

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Tunemethod? I quick search here returned: "tunemethod by ear ( listening after the clearest pitch of the tunes when following each instrument playing )"

That does not sound repeatable. Not sure I know what that means. Any other ideas :)
Well spotted.
 

MaxwellsEq

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any ideas for me to try out ?
I'm not sure that there is a guaranteed, cookie cutter answer for you. I could be glib and suggest you buy LS3/5As and listen exclusively to chamber music and spoken word.

At the front end, different cartridges can affect the sound stage, but for digital sources, and amplifiers, there isn't anything you can tune.

The art seems to be matching speakers to room. There's a dependency on how narrow a listening position you can live with. The majority view seems to be picking speakers with an even and wide distribution character and minimising first reflections.
 

Curvature

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In your 2 channel setup, assuming your gear can achieve it, can you please share the steps that you take to successfully and repeatably create a centered listening position that possesses the following qualities:
  • Unwavering, consistent, balanced phantom center image perfectly weighted in the middle all the time, balanced at all frequencies.
  • Deep, Layered, 3D sound stage extending behind the speakers and rear wall, and, well behind your head. You can clearly perceive that sounds in the sound stage are in front of you, behind you, behind the speakers.
  • Wide sound stage where sounds and sense of space seem to emanate well outside the left and right speaker boundaries
  • Tall sound stage where capable tracks unfold with spatial effect seemingly higher than the ceiling in the room (song I that feel has a "tall" sound stage, Burial - Antidawn)
I seem to get it right sometimes and I am in heaven, but then some days, on some tracks, I can't quite get there and I start messing with micro-adjustments for speaker toe in/toe out, fore/aft placement, sub crossover,level, phase and position, and even sound treatment adjustment/additions.

For instance, earlier this week, I had the magic going and made a few positional adjustments, and lost the magic. The sound stage illusion that I was immersed in collapsed and I was frustrated. It seems like every tiny tweak makes some change. I'd like to stop thinking about it and just "arrive" and enjoy.

Hope you can help!
It starts with good speakers. What is a good speaker? Look at Neumann or Genelec measurements.

Learn some acoustics and the rest.

Measure.

EQ.

That's it.


You have, in your profile picture, Triangles in what looks a nearfield setup. I would call that suboptimal from the start. With 2-way speakers you have to sit a certain distance away for the drivers to effectively integrate. If you are sitting too close you will be sitting inside a cancellation pattern. Try coaxials.
 

tmuikku

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Hi,
stereo illusion that we perceive with our conscious mind is provided by our own auditory system. Sound in room enters your ear, auditory system processes the information into existence into your perception. A stereo playback system has two sound sources in a room, which together are responsible of anything that is shared between left and right when both speakers contribute to one sound. I mean stereo sound is about phantom image(s) that aren't real but made to your existence by your auditory system as if there was real sound sources. So, yeah, the whole system needs to support the illusion that we perceive and by system I mean the playback system, the room, and positioning needs to be such that your auditory system gets into a state you want to perceive, right. How to do that is your question then, few things I've found be true with limited experience, hopefully these tips help you gain yours:

What is the magical sound? Clarity, engagement, envelopment, localization are some adjectives associated by Griesinger*, which happen when auditory system can lock in to important sound and make stream separation. I think this is quite easy to hear when this happens, so it's the tool you would use to adjust your system to your liking. So, for repeatable process all you need to do is to learn to listen your own auditory system, which you then leverage to learn to listen the room and positioning of the whole system.

Too abstract you might ask? An example
I seem to get it right sometimes and I am in heaven, but then some days, on some tracks, I can't quite get there and I start messing with micro-adjustments for speaker toe in/toe out, fore/aft placement, sub crossover,level, phase and position, and even sound treatment adjustment/additions.

For instance, earlier this week, I had the magic going and made a few positional adjustments, and lost the magic. The sound stage illusion that I was immersed in collapsed and I was frustrated. It seems like every tiny tweak makes some change. I'd like to stop thinking about it and just "arrive" and enjoy.
I could speculate what happens here is your auditory system has stream separation happen, or not! When you think sound is magical, it is very likely stream separation in your auditory system is happening and your brain is paying involuntary attention to the sound which draws you in, and what you need to do is to just understand it's your own auditory system that needs to be in a certain state to be able to perceive it and then try and learn listen to it, state of your auditory system! Now when you learn to listen to it, you can just gravitate towards a good listening spot (positioning in general) and have good sound! Contrary, if you aren't aware of this you could be listening at different distance than minute ago and wonder what happened, or if you toed-in speakers you'd need to get closer to speaker to maintain state of your auditory system, but are just unaware of that.

Alright, states of auditory system I refer are just either there is stream separation happening, or not. What it means auditory system is picking important thing from all noise around us to our consciousness thinking it's something important we need to pay attention to, or not. Stream separation enables very clear perception of the direct sound (foreground stream, important sound) and your local room turns into envelopment (background stream, non-important sound). Contrary, when the magical sound is lost there is no stream separation, so brain thinks it's just noise and doesn't pay much attention to it. Quite simple concept, right, the goal is to trick our auditory system to pay attention and provide "better" sound.

But, the stream separation is not all, it's just state of your auditory system that needs to happen in order to maximal engagement into the sound, and the rest can still be adjusted. Also it is important to understand some recordings do not have much spatial information and bigness in a way, while some do, and what is important is that you are now in a state where you more accurately perceive what is on the recording and have a possibility to perceive what was baked into the recording. Even if you should be able to hear envelopment doesn't mean you do, this has got do room acoustics then and speaker directivity and also positioning of everything of course.

How to get stream separation then? you could look for Griesinger papers or youtube videos*, but what it practically is one must preserve original harmonics of sound sufficiently intact so that the acoustic sound in room has high amplitude peaks which allows auditory system pick the sound to it's own neural stream, out from all the sounds around us. This means that poor speakers could prevent it happening or for example loud early reflections could prevent it happening, when "the noise around you" is too much compared to direct sound and the auditory system just doesn't find anything important within the noise. The thing is, a phantom center like a singer, is not just one speaker playing but two, so it's not an easy task I think! It is paramount to try and match left and right speaker anechoic response as well as try to reduce and delay earliest reflections. Try and keep the early reflections symmetric between left and right as well.

I think key thing here is a mindset try and preserve sound from speaker to your ear sufficiently free from influence of your local environment, and use your own perception of sound to determine when it's sufficient or not by finding where in the room state of your auditory system changes. It's some perimeter from speakers where it happens, beyond which it doesn't.

Now, depending on your speakers and room acoustics the stream separation should happen at some distance from speakers, and that can be found just by shrinking your stereo listening setup small enough so that Direct to Reflected sound ratio gets high enough, also amplitude and delay of earliest reflections change when you start shrinking your listening triangle and move the whole triangle within your room. Shrinking of stereo triangle is simplest and real time adjustable just by changing your own listening position: go bit closer to speakers to make stream separation happen, or bit further out to lose it. Transition between the two could happen within one step, and is very detectable on/off kind of phenomenon perceptually. And this, the transition between two states of your auditory system, you should be able to always find in any room and speakers. So first step is to find the transition, and when you do you know that when your listening position is closer than the transition you have stream separation and a chance to hear your magical sound. Now it is just matter of playing around with toe-in, and position of the whole stereo triangle, to alter how you spatially perceive the sound with the stream separation. All you have to do is maintain the listening distance being closer than the transition distance, move the system inside the room, change toe-in, use the transition to listen to changes. Just go and stand on the transition and rock back and forth to learn to hear your room, and how positioning affects sound of the room, sound of envelopment.

Nice thing here is that you don't necessarily need any details of the system, like exact distances to walls or angles of early reflections, just position everything kind of symmetrically, then go and find where the transition happens and what ever needs to happen to make stream separation now would! This would mean your direct sound ought to be fine now, but what you can do more is to fine tune the envelopment. Keep on evolving the positioning and toe-in by using your own logic based on what you hear. What you'd want to do is have as loud room sound from all around you as possible while maintaining stream separation. Simplified, you'd want to balance sound of your local room by knocking down loud early reflections that happen in front of you, in order to kind of even out all the room sound. You could try and enhance later reverberation if possible. Try kill any flutter echo, that's your worst enemy. There is another dimension to this, and that is bass at the listening position which is very much defined by room modes. The bass might not be stereo as such but still has effect on envelopment and it is very important that there is no great distracting modal peaks. So, after you've roughly figured out the stereo triangle size you can have, perhaps scout on best place where to have it, in order to sit in a location for balanced bass.

Anyway, you can improve / manipulate the system towards what you think is better just by critically listening how sound changes when you move at the transition utilizing it (your own auditory system state) to AB your stereo system sound!:) For some kind of reference, in a typical domestic room with comfortable acoustics the listening triangle could be about 2m or about 3-4feet. On small reflective room with low DI speakers it might be smaller, and with bigger room and high DI system perhaps bigger. Poor speakers smaller, better speakers bigger. Quite easy to try and reason and gravitate toward. I don't know your room or speakers but you can just set it up and try to listen for the transition and go from there.

Here is one way to listen the transition: put mono noise playing for maximally strong and dry phantom center image. Now go listen quite far out in the room, like other side of the room, equidistant from speakers of course. Focus on listening the phantom center image, it's likely big and hazy now, encompassing the whole portion of room where the speakers are. This is no stream separation, you just detect there is some sound over there in front of you. Now start walking closer to speakers staying equidistant from both, eyes closed, concentrate listening the phantom center clarity and size. As you approach the speakers the image should collapse into quite small package right in front of you, between the speakers. The speakers and the room could appear almost muted, as if everything (most) you perceive floats in the center in front of you! You are now perceiving the direct sound very clearly and your auditory system can localize it very precisely.

You can move back and forth where you think the transition happens to get more familiar with the sound,with the change in your perception and how your room affects what your perceive. If it's not happening, try bring speakers closer in (shrink the triangle), increase toe-in, get ears into tweeter height, and so on. Do what ever you need to do to perceive shift in image from big and hazy sound of your room to more focused very direct sound. If you do find it, mark the distance down where you think this transition happens, put your chair there and play some music. Lean forward to hear the magic sound of the recording, lean back to hear more relaxed sound of your own room. If you lose it while adjusting the system, just find the transition again and move your chair there. On a normal room without special acoustic treatment you would likely want to sit about at the transition for maximal envelopment (room sound) still having the stream separation happen.

ps. all of the above is my own stuff based on quite limited set of experience, and likely not absolutely truth scientifically, but nevertheless very powerful and very simple tool to get good sound, sound I like to hear. Idea is just to increase listening skill, understand what I hear and then be able to adjust system towards what I want it to sound like, and the transition enables that. As some recordings were likely optimized for either state as well, some just sound better further out, some better closer, while some sound good on both. Just knowing that sound changes with listening distance is enough to be able to take advantage of it all, to escape from circle of confusion!:) Have fun!

*) search for Griesinger limit of localizaton distance, auditory proximity
 
Last edited:

Daverz

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The most useful tool I have for speaker setup is a Stabila laser distance measurer. I use a couple wads of blu-tack, one on the front wall and one on the listening chair to get the speakers precisely set up and toed-in.

I've only heard images extended beyond the speakers when one speaker was too close to a wall. I suppose you could use this effect with speakers with wide dispersion to get a wide soundstage that extends to the left and right of the speakers, but you need a symmetrical arrangement between the side walls. You also need speakers with smooth directivity so that the effect is not frequency dependent.
 

goat76

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Hi,
stereo illusion that we perceive with our conscious mind is provided by our own auditory system. Sound in room enters your ear, auditory system processes the information into existence into your perception. A stereo playback system has two sound sources in a room, which together are responsible of anything that is shared between left and right when both speakers contribute to one sound. I mean stereo sound is about phantom image(s) that aren't real but made to your existence by your auditory system as if there was real sound sources. So, yeah, the whole system needs to support the illusion that we perceive and by system I mean the playback system, the room, and positioning needs to be such that your auditory system gets into a state you want to perceive, right.

As you say, the two speakers in a normal 2-channel setup are supposed to form a unified stereo image, a convincing stereo illusion as if all the phantom sound sources had their real own loudspeaker in place throughout all the positions in the stereo field, from the left speaker to the phantom center and the right speaker. Therefore, the same sound object in the mix should optimally sound pretty much the same wherever it is panned in the stereo field, it should optimally have the same perceived width and sound equally distinct right in the middle of the phantom center as it would sound hard-panned to either the left or the right loudspeaker.

When the two speakers are set up with a distance between them so that the phantom sound sources don't sound "washed out" or "non-distinct" in comparison to the hard-panned sounds, pretty much everything to the smallest details in the stereo image should fall in the right place and give us the best possible and unified stereo image/stereo illusion after fine-tuning it all with toe-in. For me, with my speakers and my room, that is an equilateral listening triangle of about 2 meters.



I just created a sound file that can be used to determine if the sounds in the phantom center sound as distinct as the same sounds hard-panned to the left and right speakers. It starts with a snare drum right in the middle, then to the left, and after that to the right. After that, I did the same with the sound of a kick drum. At the end of the track, it's the voice of a woman who speaks in the phantom center with another voice, the snare drum, and the kick drum behind. The kick, snare, and the other voice are then hard-panned to the left and then to the right.
All these sound objects should sound pretty much the same when it comes to width and how distinct they sound, no matter if they are placed in the left speaker, in the phantom center, or the right speaker.

Tell me if you find this sound file useful. :)
Here you go: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qihy...ices.wav?rlkey=as93j97jgiwjs5ljeadvcnac2&dl=0


.
 

tmuikku

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Cool :) There is a caveat though: When one is suitably close to speakers so that the direct sound is loud enough for stream separation, it also means that stereo crosstalk from each speaker to both ears is high, not "filled in" by early reflections, and actually means the phantom center would not sound exactly the same due to combfilter! I mean, listening sameness of the phantom center to side panned signal in domestic situation could guide one toward no stream separation setup, a setup with loud early reflections!

Fear not, the comb filter is one way to detect when one is equidistant to both speakers and is another easily perceivable phenomenon that one can listen for to evaluate how much early reflections affect perception. When the stereo crosstalk related combfilter is perceived strongly, early reflections are kind of minimum. Conversely, when there is no combfilter perceivable the early reflections are quite loud. Thus it's very likely that when there is stream separation, also the stereo crosstalk combilter should be readily audible, iow center panned sound would sound have bit different timbre than same sound panned to side. Assuming one is aware how to listen for comb filter and equidistant from both speakers, iow at main listening position.

All this means is that one just needs to be aware of all kind of things that affect perceived sound in order to be able to reason about what one is perceiving, to gravitate toward sound one wants to hear. Basically understanding of our own perception is needed, and that's simply listening skill.

Example: the stereo crosstalk is quite audible, especially with mono noise, and to avoid that quite weird kind of a sound one could gravitate to farther listening position for local room to mellow it out. Now, start adjusting toe-in and again, enhancing local room reflections seem to make better sound, no toe-in it is. Yeah, big sound, alright! But adjusting system like this made it impossible to have stream separation!

Without knowledge of two perceptions due to auditory system and what it means, it's almost impossible to get out from this spacious local room sound situation to "the better one", since it involves stereo crosstalk, exposes all flaws form the speakers, requires careful positioning for good envelopment, and so on :) In general, requires much much more energy to pull off than just put speakers somewhere and enjoy the relaxing hazy sound. But, fear not, using logic over perception it's perfectly possible to navigate through toward sound that seems like magic in comparison, sound which the brain is paying attention :)
 
Last edited:
OP
DeepCuttaBeats
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Hi,
stereo illusion that we perceive with our conscious mind is provided by our own auditory system. Sound in room enters your ear, auditory system processes the information into existence into your perception. A stereo playback system has two sound sources in a room, which together are responsible of anything that is shared between left and right when both speakers contribute to one sound. I mean stereo sound is about phantom image(s) that aren't real but made to your existence by your auditory system as if there was real sound sources. So, yeah, the whole system needs to support the illusion that we perceive and by system I mean the playback system, the room, and positioning needs to be such that your auditory system gets into a state you want to perceive, right. How to do that is your question then, few things I've found be true with limited experience, hopefully these tips help you gain yours:

What is the magical sound? Clarity, engagement, envelopment, localization are some adjectives associated by Griesinger*, which happen when auditory system can lock in to important sound and make stream separation. I think this is quite easy to hear when this happens, so it's the tool you would use to adjust your system to your liking. So, for repeatable process all you need to do is to learn to listen your own auditory system, which you then leverage to learn to listen the room and positioning of the whole system.

Too abstract you might ask? An example

I could speculate what happens here is your auditory system has stream separation happen, or not! When you think sound is magical, it is very likely stream separation in your auditory system is happening and your brain is paying involuntary attention to the sound which draws you in, and what you need to do is to just understand it's your own auditory system that needs to be in a certain state to be able to perceive it and then try and learn listen to it, state of your auditory system! Now when you learn to listen to it, you can just gravitate towards a good listening spot (positioning in general) and have good sound! Contrary, if you aren't aware of this you could be listening at different distance than minute ago and wonder what happened, or if you toed-in speakers you'd need to get closer to speaker to maintain state of your auditory system, but are just unaware of that.

Alright, states of auditory system I refer are just either there is stream separation happening, or not. What it means auditory system is picking important thing from all noise around us to our consciousness thinking it's something important we need to pay attention to, or not. Stream separation enables very clear perception of the direct sound (foreground stream, important sound) and your local room turns into envelopment (background stream, non-important sound). Contrary, when the magical sound is lost there is no stream separation, so brain thinks it's just noise and doesn't pay much attention to it. Quite simple concept, right, the goal is to trick our auditory system to pay attention and provide "better" sound.

But, the stream separation is not all, it's just state of your auditory system that needs to happen in order to maximal engagement into the sound, and the rest can still be adjusted. Also it is important to understand some recordings do not have much spatial information and bigness in a way, while some do, and what is important is that you are now in a state where you more accurately perceive what is on the recording and have a possibility to perceive what was baked into the recording. Even if you should be able to hear envelopment doesn't mean you do, this has got do room acoustics then and speaker directivity and also positioning of everything of course.

How to get stream separation then? you could look for Griesinger papers or youtube videos*, but what it practically is one must preserve original harmonics of sound sufficiently intact so that the acoustic sound in room has high amplitude peaks which allows auditory system pick the sound to it's own neural stream, out from all the sounds around us. This means that poor speakers could prevent it happening or for example loud early reflections could prevent it happening, when "the noise around you" is too much compared to direct sound and the auditory system just doesn't find anything important within the noise. The thing is, a phantom center like a singer, is not just one speaker playing but two, so it's not an easy task I think! It is paramount to try and match left and right speaker anechoic response as well as try to reduce and delay earliest reflections. Try and keep the early reflections symmetric between left and right as well.

I think key thing here is a mindset try and preserve sound from speaker to your ear sufficiently free from influence of your local environment, and use your own perception of sound to determine when it's sufficient or not by finding where in the room state of your auditory system changes. It's some perimeter from speakers where it happens, beyond which it doesn't.

Now, depending on your speakers and room acoustics the stream separation should happen at some distance from speakers, and that can be found just by shrinking your stereo listening setup small enough so that Direct to Reflected sound ratio gets high enough, also amplitude and delay of earliest reflections change when you start shrinking your listening triangle and move the whole triangle within your room. Shrinking of stereo triangle is simplest and real time adjustable just by changing your own listening position: go bit closer to speakers to make stream separation happen, or bit further out to lose it. Transition between the two could happen within one step, and is very detectable on/off kind of phenomenon perceptually. And this, the transition between two states of your auditory system, you should be able to always find in any room and speakers. So first step is to find the transition, and when you do you know that when your listening position is closer than the transition you have stream separation and a chance to hear your magical sound. Now it is just matter of playing around with toe-in, and position of the whole stereo triangle, to alter how you spatially perceive the sound with the stream separation. All you have to do is maintain the listening distance being closer than the transition distance, move the system inside the room, change toe-in, use the transition to listen to changes. Just go and stand on the transition and rock back and forth to learn to hear your room, and how positioning affects sound of the room, sound of envelopment.

Nice thing here is that you don't necessarily need any details of the system, like exact distances to walls or angles of early reflections, just position everything kind of symmetrically, then go and find where the transition happens and what ever needs to happen to make stream separation now would! This would mean your direct sound ought to be fine now, but what you can do more is to fine tune the envelopment. Keep on evolving the positioning and toe-in by using your own logic based on what you hear. What you'd want to do is have as loud room sound from all around you as possible while maintaining stream separation. Simplified, you'd want to balance sound of your local room by knocking down loud early reflections that happen in front of you, in order to kind of even out all the room sound. You could try and enhance later reverberation if possible. Try kill any flutter echo, that's your worst enemy. There is another dimension to this, and that is bass at the listening position which is very much defined by room modes. The bass might not be stereo as such but still has effect on envelopment and it is very important that there is no great distracting modal peaks. So, after you've roughly figured out the stereo triangle size you can have, perhaps scout on best place where to have it, in order to sit in a location for balanced bass.

Anyway, you can improve / manipulate the system towards what you think is better just by critically listening how sound changes when you move at the transition utilizing it (your own auditory system state) to AB your stereo system sound!:) For some kind of reference, in a typical domestic room with comfortable acoustics the listening triangle could be about 2m or about 3-4feet. On small reflective room with low DI speakers it might be smaller, and with bigger room and high DI system perhaps bigger. Poor speakers smaller, better speakers bigger. Quite easy to try and reason and gravitate toward. I don't know your room or speakers but you can just set it up and try to listen for the transition and go from there.

Here is one way to listen the transition: put mono noise playing for maximally strong and dry phantom center image. Now go listen quite far out in the room, like other side of the room, equidistant from speakers of course. Focus on listening the phantom center image, it's likely big and hazy now, encompassing the whole portion of room where the speakers are. This is no stream separation, you just detect there is some sound over there in front of you. Now start walking closer to speakers staying equidistant from both, eyes closed, concentrate listening the phantom center clarity and size. As you approach the speakers the image should collapse into quite small package right in front of you, between the speakers. The speakers and the room could appear almost muted, as if everything (most) you perceive floats in the center in front of you! You are now perceiving the direct sound very clearly and your auditory system can localize it very precisely.

You can move back and forth where you think the transition happens to get more familiar with the sound,with the change in your perception and how your room affects what your perceive. If it's not happening, try bring speakers closer in (shrink the triangle), increase toe-in, get ears into tweeter height, and so on. Do what ever you need to do to perceive shift in image from big and hazy sound of your room to more focused very direct sound. If you do find it, mark the distance down where you think this transition happens, put your chair there and play some music. Lean forward to hear the magic sound of the recording, lean back to hear more relaxed sound of your own room. If you lose it while adjusting the system, just find the transition again and move your chair there. On a normal room without special acoustic treatment you would likely want to sit about at the transition for maximal envelopment (room sound) still having the stream separation happen.

ps. all of the above is my own stuff based on quite limited set of experience, and likely not absolutely truth scientifically, but nevertheless very powerful and very simple tool to get good sound, sound I like to hear. Idea is just to increase listening skill, understand what I hear and then be able to adjust system towards what I want it to sound like, and the transition enables that. As some recordings were likely optimized for either state as well, some just sound better further out, some better closer, while some sound good on both. Just knowing that sound changes with listening distance is enough to be able to take advantage of it all, to escape from circle of confusion!:) Have fun!

*) search for Griesinger limit of localizaton distance, auditory proximity
Thank you so much. This was a fantastic response. It really resonates with me as I am going through so many of the things you mentioned during my listening sessions. Simply tilting my head, leaning back, or forwards, to a tiny degree, can seemingly transport my auditory system in to another portal of realism where i perceive that “they are here” or “I am there”. Both perceptions being equally addicting. Alas, the barrier to entry to this “portal” is still unpredictable in my system. I will re-read your response and others here and see if I can make this perception easier to access.
 

Jaxjax

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  • Unwavering, consistent, balanced phantom center image perfectly weighted in the middle all the time, balanced at all frequencies.
  • Deep, Layered, 3D sound stage extending behind the speakers and rear wall, and, well behind your head. You can clearly perceive that sounds in the sound stage are in front of you, behind you, behind the speakers.
  • Wide sound stage where sounds and sense of space seem to emanate well outside the left and right speaker boundaries
  • Tall sound stage where capable tracks unfold with spatial effect seemingly higher than the ceiling in the room (song I that feel has a "tall" sound stage, Burial - Antidawn)
Do you get all this with your current gear from time to time? If you have a head in vise situation & can't resolve that issue alone I would change speakers. Head in vise can be a miserable place to be. If it's not head in vise then I would measure & EQ ...I shoot for the highest percentage of "yep that perfect " I can get across the board with any track, digital or analog. My sweet spot is huge & that's with a dome tweeter, but I have dsp active also. I also EQ . Your listening distance could be a problem,...If your speaker are way off from a match it will also be a problem. I'm at .3db
 

Keith_W

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I recently rotated my system to get better imaging qualities, which meant that I had to reposition the speakers, subs, and main listening position (MLP).

1. Step 1 is to decide where you want to place your subwoofers. In my case, I wanted them in the corners of the room to provide maximum corner loading and wide separation to exploit Griesinger's stereo sub effect.

2. Now we determine how far you need to sit from your speakers. All speakers have a minimum distance where the sound "integrates". This is closer to the speaker if you use a point source speaker or a small bookshelf, and further away if you own a large multi-driver speaker. It is possible to determine this with measurements (see this post) but it is just as easy to simply listen to your speaker and get closer / further away. As you get closer to your speaker, you will get to a point where you hear a "wall of sound". As you back away, it will shrink to a more believable soundstage.

3. Now we determine the speaker plane. You want the speakers far away enough from all room boundaries so that the reflections are delayed as much as possible. Delayed and attenuated reflections is what gives you the sense of spaciousness and wide soundstage. @OCA helped me by providing a script which calculates this and outputs a diagram of the room. See this post. If you want to replicate the diagram, go to the Asymptote website, click on "Web Application", and copy-paste the script he provided. Modify the script with your room dimensions. This was the result:

image.png.870f08e4a88821606934163909ac4fdc.png


Using the diagram, I knew that my speakers had to be a minimum of 1m away from the front wall, and 1.5m away from the side walls. I then considered the layout of my room (where to place furniture, where I needed access to adjacent rooms, hallways, etc) and determined that I could not place my MLP too close to the rear wall because I needed to walk behind it.

4. At this point, I fixed the speaker plane to be 1.2m from the front wall. Next step was to determine the position of the MLP. I placed a tape measure on the floor, and took repeated sweeps at various distances looking for the most even bass response. I didn't mind any peaks (because I could DSP them out), but I wanted as few dips as possible. This was the result:

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It looked as if 220cm from the rear wall produced the smallest dip at 40Hz, so that was the position I chose. As you can see from the photo, I marked an "X" on the floor with masking tape. Bear in mind that this is subwoofer territory and not due to the position of the speakers. The beauty of subwoofers is that you can place them where they are most advantageous for producing bass, and you position your speakers where they are most advantageous for imaging.

4. At this point, I have determined the position of the subwoofers, position of the MLP, and the plane of the speakers. The next step is to establish an equilateral triangle by doing some math:

1711164725364.png


Now that I know the value of 2x I moved the speakers along the x-axis until an equilateral triangle was established.

5. Now we adjust the toe-in of your speakers. Extreme toe-in (so that the direct axis crosses in front of the MLP) results in more delayed sidewall reflections which is desirable, but you may lose centre image precision if your speaker is highly directive. If you do not have access to a polar plot of your speaker, the only way to do this is by subjective listening. Play a mono recording and adjust the toe-in until the image sharply in focus in the centre. I generally prefer as much toe-in as possible.

6. Now that all that is done, the very last step is to take a sweep to confirm that all is well, and redo your DSP (if using). This is a thread all of its own, and you can read about my travails in my system thread.
 

Keith_W

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@Keith_W has a very nice process but leaves off full verification.

I do verify it? See the last step in my post. BTW because of the configuration of my system, positioning the speakers and subs is only the beginning step, before extensive DSP. Full verification is done at the end of DSP. I should have described how I do my verification. I take multiple sets of measurements - L and R subs only, L and R speakers only, then mono measurements (i.e. both sides playing together) - subs only, and speakers only. This is what I want to see:

- the lower frequencies < 200Hz should sum to as close to flat as possible when played in mono. If it doesn't, then you have individual L/R measurements to see what is causing the problem. I think that many people in ASR don't seem to realize the value of mono sweeps. Maybe because most people have a single subwoofer. I have two.
- the unwrapped phase curve of left and right should match as closely as possible.

If I had no DSP, there would be a whole bunch of other things I would like to see, e.g. I would make a lot more effort trying to integrate the sub, try different sub positions, etc. But I know what I can fix in DSP and what I can't. Good speaker placement is only the starting point for me, and not the end point as it would be if I didn't DSP.

BTW I was playing with REW's room simulator last night and I had forgotten how good it was. Compare REW's room sim with my actual measurements:

1713232937809.png


1713233032342.png


REW correctly predicted the position of the bass null at about 40Hz. When I moved the MLP in the room sim, I could also see the bass null moving up and down the frequency range, exactly as shown in the measurements.

Not a perfect simulation of course, because my room is not an enclosed rectangle - it is open in one corner to the adjoining room and a staircase. But it was still remarkably close. If I were to do it again, I would recommend a room sim first before placing the speakers and subs, and then doing sweeps.

As an aside, REW's room sim can also suggest ways to get rid of that null. I tried using the sim to move the subs to different positions. These do get rid of the null, but those positions range between unacceptable (blocks doors) or hazardous (have to run cable across the floor). Something it did suggest was to convert the listening position sofa into a subwoofer! I am now looking at the sofa and wondering how to modify it and turn it into a third sub. I have an old leather sofa which is hollow inside. I may be able to construct a subwoofer that would fit. It would bring great benefits if I did that, imagine sitting on top of a subwoofer!
 

goat76

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@goat76 track is a great effort however EMMA takes it a bit further. Their tracks provide Left, Left of Center (LOC), Center, Right of Center (ROC) and Right. When done correctly LOC and ROC will be halfway from their respective left or right and that of center.

Here you go, I made a new file with Left, Left of Center (LOC), Center, Right of Center (ROC), and Right. :)


Why do you think the LOC and ROC are needed, shouldn't those sounds end up right between the speaker position and the phantom center position no matter how wide or narrow you place your speakers? I mean, as those sounds are fixed to a position panned 50% to the left or the right, I would expect them to end up at the halfway position between the speakers and the phantom center no matter how wide or narrow you place your speakers.

The way I see it, the important thing should be that the phantom-centered sounds should sound as loud, have the correct perceived width, and sound as distinctively as the hard-panned and "true mono sound" played just by either the left or the right speaker. When that is achieved by finding a distance between the two speakers that work for your particular speakers, everything panned anywhere between the phantom center and the loudspeaker's positions should also sound as loud, have the correct perceived width, and sound as distinctively as both the hard-panned sounds and the phantom centered sound. Well, it will of course not hurt to have it confirmed by the sounds in the LOC and ROC positions, but when you get the phantom center to sound right, everything else in the "stereo field puzzle" should fall in right too. :)

The LOC and ROC would probably be more important if a real center speaker is used in the system, it could be used to make sure the level is correct between the center speaker and the main left and right speakers.
 
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CAMSHAFT

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Here you go, I made a new file with Left, Left of Center (LOC), Center, Right of Center (ROC), and Right. :)


Why do you think the LOC and ROC are needed, shouldn't those sounds end up right between the speaker position and the phantom center position no matter how wide or narrow you place your speakers? I mean, as those sounds are fixed to a position panned 50% to the left or the right, I would expect them to end up at the halfway position between the speakers and the phantom center no matter how wide or narrow you place your speakers.

The way I see it, the important thing should be that the phantom-centered sounds should sound as loud, have the correct perceived width, and sound as distinctively as the hard-panned and "true mono sound" played just by either the left or the right speaker. When that is achieved by finding a distance between the two speakers that work for your particular speakers, everything panned anywhere between the phantom center and the loudspeaker's positions should also sound as loud, have the correct perceived width, and sound as distinctively as both the hard-panned sounds and the phantom centered sound. Well, it will of course not hurt to have it confirmed by the sounds in the LOC and ROC positions, but when you get the phantom center to sound right, everything else in the "stereo field puzzle" should fall in right too. :)

The LOC and ROC would probably be more important if a real center speaker is used in the system, it could be used to make sure the level is correct between the center speaker and the main left and right speakers.
Sorry for the slow reply. What LOC and ROC do is confirm an equally spaced, focused and equal size at all frequencies, 5 images across the stage. Without verifying LOC and ROC you can have a wide Center with a misaligned and out of phase overall stage.
 
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