Stereophile's snide editorial on ASR and Amir

[Mr. E. Guy]

If the last word was “perceive”, it would make sense.

Otherwise, no human can hear anything that cannot be detected by measurement.

The opposite of what they said is true. It is possible to measure far beyond the resolution and range of human hearing.

 

[Sokel]

Using $100.000 gear to listen to a record recorded in a public bathroom using a $5 microphone ist Krieg!

Fritz Reiner's 1954 "Also Sprach Zarathustra" with 250K of gear is always a delight thought!
The force!

 

[alex-z]

"Remember kids, the only difference between screwing around and science is writing it down" - the ballistics expert from Mythbusters.

Everyone who measures an audio product is a scientist, helping people spend their money wisely. It is weird of Stereophile to take a shot at people who own an Audio Precision analyzer, that is basically an admission of jealousy that their own data is lower quality, but rather than aim for better, they resort to an opinion piece.

Even weirder is how they try and paint Purifi as being in their corner, without even bothering to explain a single innovation of theirs. The audio equivalent of quoting Richard Feynman without ever mentioning the word particle.

 

[sq225917]

I think we're missing the trees here.

They mean they went from mathematics and electronics to the physical sciences required to build a drive unit. They're talking about the differences between correcting driver shortcomings with dsp, via dealing with them at source through physical, and magnetic design and materials choice.

Also Bruno has stepped away from talking 100% about hard numbers stuff with amp design to more flowery audio language when talking about the driver design and implementation. Hes doing it to cover both bases from a marketing perspective.

I believe the article is leaning towards this a little, while also being an appeal to authority of the established trade reviewers vs well equipped 'upstarts' like Amir, as a means to shore up their own position in light of declining readership.

It's a hack job of course.

 

[Vacceo]

Well, i think not everything that is important is tested here (or at least shown in the results Amir presents). But it can be done, and even with that, his testing is the most complete of all those i know, and i can deduct from what he shows if something that is not tested is good or not (phase alignment of drivers for instance). But i got insight in how speakers work and how to build them, many here not. On the other hand, if something is wrong and not shown in the results, the rest of the results will also not be good so the speaker will get a low rating anyway. So it's not that important for the end result. But it would be nice to have that info also.

But in any way, the tests and reviews of Amir and other on this site tell me way more than any other, and are a big step forwards into objective reviews of gear. And that is a great thing, even if it's not perfect. Those other sites/fora mentioned here only tell me what is availeble and in fashion.

And those tests don't need Diana Krall to prove anything!

 

[FrantzM]

Fritz Reiner's 1954 "Also Sprach Zarathustra" with 250K of gear is always a delight thought!
The force!

Remains a delight on a clock radio or a Bose Wave Radio

Peace.

 

[restorer-john]

Measurements or it didn’t happen.

Measurements? What measurements? With what piece of equipment, with what specific accuracy, by whom and what specific parameters?

Do you dismiss Amir's results because his APX-555 is uncalibrated and way out of certification? Or do you accept that such a device remains pretty much accurate up until something major fails?

 

[Sokel]

Remains a delight on a clock radio or a Bose Wave Radio

Peace.

The specific one is a delight even when you think about it,without listening.

 

[pma]

Members of the Purifi team seemed to me as impatient with measurements-happy reductionists as with the radical antimeasurements crowd. Sure, it's depressing when a forum post asks, "Is it possible for a component that measures well to sound good?" But owning an Audio Precision analyzer doesn't make you an expert, and the unguided application of analytical tools can lead you far astray.

(quoted from Stereophile)

I agree with this.

 

[kokakolia]

ASR’s basic premise, better measuring = better sounding is flawed. What follows is a bunch of cultist nonsense.

ASR is a forum for fanatics. as such there is a heavy bias towards a particular dogma. this forum is the polar opposite and generally polite and supportive. ASR is instead a close minded group of fanatics that are obsessed measurements only. its by far the least helpful and least fun audio forum around.

Research done using measurements on test equipment. No test equipment can measure everything humans can hear. And some operators of that test equipment, like ASR, make errant measurements.

Quite, I mean Amir and ASR has built a reputation as a "myth buster" and as such is hardly a neutral scientist approaching testing open-mindedly. Furthermore, if we go by the bible of ASR then we would all just use $200 Chinese DACs (they measure the best according to Amir) and $5 Costco cables (expensive cables are a waste of money according to Amir). In fact the forum threads on ASR are unsurprisingly reminiscent of some of the posts on this thread - Amir reviews and lambasts a product (if it isn't a cheap Chinese DAC), his followers go onto the thread lauding him with god-like praise and laughing at the poor fools who would buy such a product, bathing in their perceived superiority for "seeing the light". Sound familiar? The irony is that when you look at the gear list of posters on this and other threads who adopt the objectivist approach and laud ASR, I don't see them using those same cheap Chinese DACs that ASR bangs on about measuring so well and I often see expensive cables listed in their gear list. Seems they don't always practice what they preach.

Why? ASR knows how to measure everything but knows the value of very little, it seems. Like a kid given a ruler for the first time, running around measuring the world and casting judgement and deciding its worth. Right. Being able to measure something does not make you an engineer. Give him/ASR time. Maybe one day he'll grow up.

ASR doesn't review equipment with human ears. They use machines.

I agree with everything above. 100%

That said, this is fuel for the fruitless objectivist/subjectivist debate.

Some people lean heavily on measurements to make buying decisions. Can you blame them when they can't just go to a store and sample the product?

I feel like a magazine like Stereophile can write anything about a product, it doesn't have to be true. Because 99,9999% of the readers won't have a single opportunity to come in contact with the product in the review (objective or subjective). The audiophile hobby to me is like a fiction. You read about wonderful products repeatedly, but these products may as well not exist (unless you have endless wealth/time to buy & return products). It's no surprise that the "objectivist cult" is on the rise, with a clear methodology of ranking products.

People gravitate towards simplicity and convenience. Here's a shortlist of good products. Pick something from that list. Done.

I just want to have more opportunities to try products in person and make up my own mind. ASR and Stereophile should recognize that they're effectively making buying decisions for the consumer because they're the only ones who can sample products. The buyer can't.

 

[DanielT]

Fritz Reiner's 1954 "Also Sprach Zarathustra" with 250K of gear is always a delight thought!
The force!

It's a classic. Also used in a lot of movies. Even in comedies. A parody of ... I think everyone knows which movie the clip is a parody of:
(Not the smartest male photo models perhaps)

 

[Sokel]

It's a classic. Also used in a lot of movies. Even in comedies. A parody of ... I think everyone knows which movie the clip is a parody of:
(Not the smartest male photo models perhaps)

Movies are the biggest thieves of classical ever!

(no more OT,I promise )

 

[DanielT]

Movies are the biggest thieves of classical ever!

(no more OT,I promise )

Or spreaders of classical music. That's a good thing, I think.

OT:
However, I sympathize with the guys in the clip from the movie Zoolander. I recognize myself in that when IT/data / internet is fuc*** with me.

 

[Count Arthur]

 

[Dial]

You’d be surprised where many throw their cash. I know quite a few in their early 20’s spending over $2k on a custom keyboard, such as the Keycult offerings.

While they could buy or rather start a credit for a ZYX cartridge (the one for 16000 $) + the headshell (only $695 for a so-called non-resonant piece of aluminum).

 

[theREALdotnet]

No veils were lifted, sadly, otherwise the result would be on the news. To Mega Therion!

Wrong choice of material

You should use this recording for testing HiFi gear:

Only the most revealing equipment will lift all seven.

 

[Glint]

How is that any more pathetic than what ASR members do to Stereophile in our posts.
Why is it ok for ASR but not Stereophile?
Inquiring minds want to know

Likely because people have had to essentially build up their own, trustworthy sources that don't have, ahem "commercial considerations" for their prosaic.

People who've wanted facts have always been on the back foot. On head-fi we got essentially banned from all threads not in "audio science". FotM rules.

Commercial audio forums are typically reverberating echo chambers, a pre-sales soothing before the plunge, a place to be told what you're buying is great, first step on the ladder.

That's why, I guess? We're traditionally treated like unwelcome irritants. I've literally never read or bought Stereophile though, perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm guessing I'm not the target demographic.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Recently there seems to be a coordinated and prepared attack on objectivity and measurement of equipment by the more subjective hive mind reviewer whether they be print, online, video, the wording/particular phrases used appear to read almost identically so I guess the jungle drums are rumbling and they feel threatened for whatever reason.

They should feel threatened, by the glorious statement, "You can enjoy your in home music reproduction, and you don't have to spend a fortune to do that", which is broadcast on this website!

 

[Yuhasz01]

I am not a scientist. I am doing what a reviewer should do in context of testing a technical product. They need to use instrumentation to figure out what it does. Not faulty ears and listening test practices. I have no lab coat, nor will ever wear one. This is simple engineering verification. Please don't elevate it to "science" and then say "it is not science."

I can train a technician to run my tests in a day. Surely he is not doing science. I use science extensively in analysis of said data but again, usage does not equal science.

Audio engineering: systems , signals and devices. Science based engineering

 

[kokakolia]

They should feel threatened, by the glorious statement, "You can enjoy your in home music reproduction, and you don't have to spend a fortune to do that", which is broadcast on this website!

This shall never be a threat. Because high-end equipment shall never be accessible. Only magazines like Stereophile can audition this equipment for "free" before purchasing. Luxury products like Rolex and Ferrari are only desirable because they're inaccessible to the common folk a.k.a. "plebians".