Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)

[dpippel]

I have one on the way and would still love to see the inside . I understand why topping would not exactly want the design blasted everywhere though.

What difference does it really make if Topping publishes pics of the internals? If some nefarious company wants to clone this DAC they'll just buy one and do a tear-down. Withholding photos is pointless.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I'm sure careful PCB layout has a good deal to do with how this DAC performs.

 

[dualazmak]

I'm sure careful PCB layout has a good deal to do with how this DAC performs.

I agree with you. And, the same for OKTO DAC8 PRO and DAC8 STEREO, I believe.

 

[JohnYang1997]

What difference does it really make if Topping publishes pics of the internals? If some nefarious company wants to clone this DAC they'll just buy one and do a tear-down. Withholding photos is pointless.

What difference does it really make if I just post all project files, pcb schematic bom. If some nefarious company wants to clone they only need to spend extra few hundred bucks to get a full set of project files by letting someone else do the reverse engineering. Withholding project files is pointless.

 

[Peternz]

1. To prove it's properly designed and not broken.
2. To ensure that it will be transparent under every circumstance, even if my setup is suboptimal.

There are no $200 amps that are excellent. Good ones, but not excellent.

He said properly designed. Not excellent.

 

[JohnYang1997]

View attachment 135840

I think someone looked at the thumbnails only in an image search...

View attachment 135842

I'm happy to say that our production units have the t. So no worries.

 

[dpippel]

What difference does it really make if I just post all project files, pcb schematic bom. If some nefarious company wants to clone they only need to spend extra few hundred bucks to get a full set of project files by letting someone else do the reverse engineering. Withholding project files is pointless.

Come on John, photos are a completely different animal than BOMs and schematics. If I want to post pics of the D90SE internals, all I need to do is buy one and take it apart, which WILL be done by someone I'm sure. There's no way in hell I'd be able to get my hands on your IP technical documents. It's not a valid comparison.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Come on John, photos are a completely different animal than BOMs and schematics. If I want to publish pics of the D90SE internals, all I need to do is buy one and take it apart, which WILL be done by someone I'm sure. There's no way in hell I'd be able to get my hands on your IP technical documents. It's not a valid comparison.

I not totally against sharing photos. Just to mimic your last reply so that you'd see the logic is a little bit, you know, off.

 

[dpippel]

I not totally against sharing photos. Just to mimic your last reply so that you'd see the logic is a little bit, you know, off.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree about that.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I not totally against sharing photos. Just to mimic your last reply so that you'd see the logic is a little bit, you know, off.

We're not asking for Gerbers of the PCB and a BOM.

 

[richard12511]

OK now that the audio DAC is a solved problem w.r.t measurements (I guess it has been solved for a while w.r.t audibility), I'd say almost the same for the amplifiers.

Please dear R&D departments of all audio companies turn your resources to the weakest part of the audio chain (and stop trying to break all ready broken barriers). Speakers!
We need to see this affordable, technically outstanding performance (good and/or constant directivity, low distortion, high spl) for speakers (instead of these 10k$+ product mostly targeted to the almost niche audiophile and just wealthy but not so audiophile crowd).

I have to agree that measuring DACs is a waste of time , given it's a long since solved problem, but this thread is 28 pages long , and judging by the comments, many bought this device because of this review. As long as there is interest there will be reviews. Humans like higher scores, even if they don't matter at all.

 

[richard12511]

@amirm Can I ask, in terms of pure sound quality (so not considering build, connection or features like MQA), can I ask is there a big difference/any difference between the D90SE with the ESS9038 Pro and the D50S with the ESS9038Q2M?

No sound quality difference. Unless a DAC is worse than -70dB or so, there's no difference to be heard for most non-trained listeners. Even then the difference is smaller than the difference between your left and right headphone drivers.

 

[richard12511]

Judging by the abundance of good products, I'd say the weakest link in the chain seem to be headphones.

Given the amount of money going towards headphones atm, I'd say it's more likely that it's just the hardest problem to solve.

 

[Peternz]

No sound quality difference. Unless a DAC is worse than -70dB or so, there's no difference to be heard for most non-trained listeners. Even then the difference is smaller than the difference between your left and right headphone drivers.

It is what it is, to whomever it may concern. I think most people here have experience with various DACs and do not need to be told whether or not there is a difference. They know.

 

[slamman]

Given the amount of money going towards headphones atm, I'd say it's more likely that it's just the hardest problem to solve.

not to derail but i think something else interesting to think about in relation to SMSL and topping products is they seem to easily push out DACs, my m300 mkII DAC was like 175 used. it measures insane for that price 120db SINAD . color screen full balanced with remote and tuning/bluetooth. but the speaker amps from topping just are not there. not even close. i wonder what the difference is? a lot of companies make amps , id love a smsl or topping 110db 20 bit dynamic range amp for speakers for $300 or so. i guess it must be hard to make or just no market to put that much engineering into other than a chip. the topping pa3 reviewed here this year sinad is like 68. either people dont want speaker amps or they cant make them easily id live to know which. the d90se is like almost 3 times the performance of their best speaker amp. do we need more DACs? there seems to be a new one every 6 months. i will look for another thread to ask about it but we were talking about what the limitation is and as you say its headphones but i think its speaker amps.

 

[voodooless]

It’s just way, way harder to make superb amp for little money. Either the designs are licensed, like Hypex or Purifi, or closed. So you’ll need to come up with something on your own. With DAC’s it’s much easier: the performance is known upfront, it’s just a matter of unlocking that potential.

 

[kopczas]

there seems to be a new one every 6 months.

In this case it is understandable : since further production of D90 could not follow cause of AKM`s factory fire, Topping needed something to maintain 90`s line of devices. I guess it`s D90 v.2 out of necessity. They had opportunity to make it even better, so they did.

 

[ceausuc]

That's all subjectivist fiction and imagination. The soundstage comes from your music and your headphone/speakers reproducing it. DACs play no role in that. They are way too transparent to have any effect there.

I have to have the best so d90se.

I'm sorry but there is something I just don't understand...
If you say that all those dacs are transparent and sound the same why would you even recommend the d90se(for instance)?
Why isn't the conclusion of your review some thing like:
"I don't recommend this dac since you can get other dacs with the same features and 'way too transparent' for 400$ less. Go spend this money for speakers or... charity".

 

[dmac6419]

I'm sorry but there is something I just don't understand...
If you say that all those dacs are transparent and sound the same why would you even recommend the d90se(for instance)?
Why isn't the conclusion of your review some thing like:
"I don't recommend this dac since you can get other dacs with the same features and 'way too transparent' for 400$ less. Go spend this money for speakers or... charity".

Or a D90SE

 

[mocenigo]

It’s just way, way harder to make superb amp for little money. Either the designs are licensed, like Hypex or Purifi, or closed. So you’ll need to come up with something on your own. With DAC’s it’s much easier: the performance is known upfront, it’s just a matter of unlocking that potential.

"It’s just a matter of unlocking that potential."

Engineering is not like in a MCU movie, where Bruce Banner and Tony Stark start talking to each other and, hey, TIME TRAVEL.

There is actual effort that comes into "unlocking that potential."