Fun with vinyl measurements

[morillon]

33rruert2

The phone app has an error deviation, 33.4 gives stationary strobe lines (33.336 with stylus in groove. Cannot hear any wow in music , but can on test record tone, depends on record centering also of course

ok.. ;-)
(2sigma?)
a recent revision of rpm and wow on android seems to have gained in rigor on this point, but especially if you have the assurance via a test like strobe 300hz (a good strobe remains a simple and effective solution), allows you to manually compensate for the observed deviation..
simple
(if the motor is not speed controlled you really have to check the mains frequency precisely... for example in my country it is normalized at +-0.1%... it is sensitive...)

(a paid software under ios seems after a sufficient qualibration test to be efficient even on the absolute speed)...

the perception of the wow flutter depends a lot on the type of music and instruments listened to etc
.it can bring a lot of perfect misunderstanding in the discussions

 

[stereoplay]

Best turntable I ever tested is a Denon DP-30L (Gyroscope)

 

[USER]

Best turntable I ever tested is a Denon DP-30L (Gyroscope)

Same. Though I have only tested 4 turntables. 30L II. Super robust motor. I am thinking that is why it is besting its older brother the 35F. I purchased a 33F because it is the best of both worlds, but it may be more than I can handle repair wise.

 

[atmasphere]

The phone app has an error deviation, 33.4 gives stationary strobe lines (33.336 with stylus in groove. Cannot hear any wow in music , but can on test record tone, depends on record centering also of course

When you get to variation that low, the ear cannot detect the change in pitch. However, the arm can oscillate above the groove (due to variable skating forces), varying the tracking pressure on the left and right groove walls. You can hear this as a slight shimmer in the sound stage- when you get the speed variation to the level of a good direct drive, this 'shimmer' goes away and you get a sound stage that you otherwise might associate with tape or a good digital source.

 

[morillon]

When you get to variation that low, the ear cannot detect the change in pitch.

do you listen often piano?

 

[Balle Clorin]

I have no problem hearing a 0.01% wow on a test tone that is digitalt generated:

 

[Hayabusa]

I have no problem hearing a 0.01% wow on a test tone that is digitalt generated:

wow!

 

[Balle Clorin]

What difference does a Step-up trafo do? vs MC gain stage. MC 200ohm, MM 47k 145 pF.

Not much on the frequency / distortion plot.
Impulse response and square wave have to have wait to another day. I am drinking bear an listening to vinyl now.

Which Step up? Ortofon T-5…

 

[atmasphere]

do you listen often piano?

Yes- often I listen piano and stringy instruments.

View attachment 295879What difference does a Step-up trafo do? vs MC gain stage. MC 200ohm, MM 47k 145 pF.

Not much on the frequency / distortion plot.
Impulse response and square wave have to have wait to another day. I am drinking bear an listening to vinyl now.

Which Step up? Ortofon T-5…

Its always a good idea to do a little testing to make sure that the transformer isn't ringing due to improper load! The correct load will vary with the source impedance since transformers transform impedance. The capacitance of the tonearm cable will play a role. It can cause electrical resonance interacting with the inductance of the system.

 

[dlaloum]

View attachment 295880View attachment 295879What difference does a Step-up trafo do? vs MC gain stage. MC 200ohm, MM 47k 145 pF.

Not much on the frequency / distortion plot.
Impulse response and square wave have to have wait to another day. I am drinking bear an listening to vinyl now.

Which Step up? Ortofon T-5…

On an MC the loading does very little in terms of F/R - the raw response of the cantilever is brutally exposed...

The cantilevers first resonance is somewhere around 15kHz - which makes it a decent but by no means exceptional...

Even though it is tapered boron - this shows that the resulting effective mass is no better than a really good aluminium cantilever.

We are a long way from the days when flagship cartridges had their cantilever resonance above 30kHz and sometimes well above 50khz - resulting in a true approximation of a flat frequency response.

 

[dlaloum]

Yes- often I listen piano and stringy instruments.



Its always a good idea to do a little testing to make sure that the transformer isn't ringing due to improper load! The correct load will vary with the source impedance since transformers transform impedance. The capacitance of the tonearm cable will play a role. It can cause electrical resonance interacting with the inductance of the system.

This can be calculated - in most cases for most MC's the inductances involved are so low that the actual impact is completely negiligible (and well below - order of magnitude? - the ability to accurately measure)

 

[Balle Clorin]

One of the benefits of using the Ortofon is the absolute noiselessn SS. I cannot recall having any noise before , but with the T-5 I checked with highe volume setting and and my ear into the speaker , dead silent no hiss no hum no power supply noise , nothing , I cannot determine if my system is turned on or off.

90db speakers, RIAA MM gain 36db, T5 26db , power amp 14 db gain, preamp ??


Noise.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Yes- often I listen piano and stringy instruments.



Its always a good idea to do a little testing to make sure that the transformer isn't ringing due to improper load! The correct load will vary with the source impedance since transformers transform impedance. The capacitance of the tonearm cable will play a role. It can cause electrical resonance interacting with the inductance of the system.

Some square wave test. 96kHz sampling, did not bother to bring out the Oscilloscope, the digital filter at 96K may mess up the Square, but little difference at least

CBS STR-111 looks like this.

Finally got the Oscilloscope up, using the B&K QR2009=Clearaudio TRS-1007 EQ compensation ( bass lift 500hz, 1000+Hz flat) and Get this

 

[morillon]

I have no problem hearing a 0.01% wow on a test tone that is digitalt generated:

I have no problem hearing a 0.01% wow on a test tone that is digitalt generated:

what seems to be often forgotten-ignored.. it is to listen to these famous 3k-3k150...not just to measure...
it's interesting...

 

[morillon]

When you get to variation that low, the ear cannot detect the change in pitch. However, the arm can oscillate above the groove (due to variable skating forces), varying the tracking pressure on the left and right groove walls. You can hear this as a slight shimmer in the sound stage- when you get the speed variation to the level of a good direct drive, this 'shimmer' goes away and you get a sound stage that you otherwise might associate with tape or a good digital source.

and you, you feel personnal,that you are no longer embarrassed from what threshold of wow-flutter?
(but the opportunity to ask, (or question to yourself), the question a little to all..
see can be associate this observation with what is essentially listening as a type of music etc. ;-) )

 

[Balle Clorin]

Stylus drag effekt . By the way 33.38 on the ShaknSpin makes the strobedisk 100% stationary so the speed in tuned to match 33.38 on music.
Sorry cannot control YouTube

 

[dlaloum]

Stylus drag effekt . By the way 33.38 on the ShaknSpin makes the strobedisk 100% stationary so the speed in tuned to match 33.38 on music.
Sorry cannot control YouTube

If you are going to start looking at stylus drag....

You should also consider looking at lubricating treatments.

Specifically - Gruv Glide

Genuine Gruv Glide - The Ultimate Vinyl Record Treatment

Genuine Gruv Glide - The Ultimate Vinyl Record Treatment

www.gruvglide.com

Last record preservative

LAST Record Preservative – 2 Oz.

Protect your records from wear and damage by the stylus with Last Record Preservative. This unique formula keeps records sounding like new.

thelastfactory.com

The (not so) secret ingredient here is Fomblin - which is remarkably expensive!!

and strangely enough
ArmorAll .... yes - this stuff:

Original Protectant | Armor All®

Armor All® Original Protectant contains UV protection to help block harmful elements and oxidation that can damage, fade and discolour surfaces.

www.armorall.com

All of these need to be used in tiny amounts, onto a surface that has already been thoroughly cleaned (preferably ultrasonic cleaned)

Treatment with last or armorall (in the tiny dosages required) - will over a subsequent period of several days to a couple of weeks, migrate between the vinyl and embedded dust or non-vinyl particles that are otherwise pressed into the surface, and tend to release them... if you re-clean ultrasonically a week after lubricating treatment - it will clear these out. (isn't vinyl fun!)

The lubricating treatments, have in the past resulted in measurable reductions in stylus drag effects - look to lengthy threads on VinylEngine on both lubrication, as well as stylus drag.
The information needed to replicate LAST is there (a thread contributor who is a chemist organised an analysis from memory!) - also the discussion as to whether the minute amounts of fomblin used in Last would have a substantive impact... Fomblin is really expensive (!) - and increasing the concentration of fombline would make Last cost prohibitive - but would probably have substantial impact on performance.

If you use too much of any of these - you will get build up behind the needle, as it scrapes off the excess - not nasty, but you do need to clean the needle.
If you use the correct amounts, you will still see build up unless you do a subsequent deep clean (ultrasonic) - as the lubricant will migrate and relase the more recalcitrant stuff... so if you are totally OCD, you would clean ultrasonically, lubricate, let it sit for a week, then do a final ultrasonic clean, before playing the record... - impacts of this type of treatment include - reduced vinyl roar, decreased pops/clicks, decreased stylus drag, increased vinyl life and stylus life.

As I recall - stylus drag was measured about 10 to 15 years ago, by seeing how long a turntable would take to slow to a stop with the stylus in the groove... the difference was measurable and consistent

 

[Thomas_A]

I once measured that stylus in groove slowed down my Linn Axis from 33.52056 RPM to 33.50904 RPM, i.e. 0.034%.

 

[morillon]

33.50

 

[Thomas_A]

33.50

Yes this was many years ago. Speed is adjusted today closer to 33.33