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GR Research X-LS Encore Kit Speaker Review

Rick Sykora

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Felt's effectiveness follows my prior test experience, but first a couple of notes. Thickest felt I have is 1/4". 1/2" is pretty thick and Vandersteen used something closer to 1/8". I tried strips the height of the tweeter; first close to the edge and then on the tweeter faceplate. There is some fairly significant shifts in frequency response, but little change in the overall diffraction rippling. The main issue is that the felt response is not clearly better and might be arguably worse. Pics to come once I get them off of the computer I use to measure...

Here is pic for comparison. Yellow line is baseline, red is is felt close to edge and blue line is felt on the tweeter faceplate...

gr x-ls encore felt comparo.png


Which is better? I would say they are just different and I see no major improvement (IMO, its worse) with the felt, so why bother with time or expense?
 
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KaiserSoze

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Here is pic for comparison. Yellow line is baseline, red is is felt close to edge and blue line is felt on the tweeter faceplate...

View attachment 76493

Which is better? I would say they are just different and I see no major improvement (IMO, its worse) with the felt, so why bother with time or expense?

This is the X-LS Encore on axis? In the off-axis response there should be a diffraction-related dip at 1.6 kH and a diffraction-related peak at 3.2 kHz. The on-axis response should be the reverse, i.e., a peak at 1.6 kHz and a dip at 3.2 kHz. These features were fairly easy to see in Amir's measurements, more so in the off-axis than in the on-axis. I do see a dip at 3 kHz to about 3.2 kHz, which was made worse by the felt close to the edge (red). At 4.8 kHz there should be another peak in the on-axis response, which I do not see in the yellow, but both felt placements appear to have produced at peak a little below 4.8 kHz, at maybe 4.3 kHz. I wonder what the off-axis response curves would show
 

Rick Sykora

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This is the X-LS Encore on axis? In the off-axis response there should be a diffraction-related dip at 1.6 kH and a diffraction-related peak at 3.2 kHz. The on-axis response should be the reverse, i.e., a peak at 1.6 kHz and a dip at 3.2 kHz. These features were fairly easy to see in Amir's measurements, more so in the off-axis than in the on-axis. I do see a dip at 3 kHz to about 3.2 kHz, which was made worse by the felt close to the edge (red). At 4.8 kHz there should be another peak in the on-axis response, which I do not see in the yellow, but both felt placements appear to have produced at peak a little below 4.8 kHz, at maybe 4.3 kHz. I wonder what the off-axis response curves would show

yes, on axis, 1m and gated at 3 ms. Also a major step down from Amir’s gear - REW with Umik and Dayton APA-150 amp
 

Sonny1

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If Danny or whoever else cares strongly for these tweaks, then they should supply them to us for testing. Rick and I have put in a lot of money, time and effort in this project already. Not going to spend more money to prove other people's theories. They should step up if it is important to them.

I don’t blame you. If someone makes claims that are not supported by scientific data or at least scientific theory, the onus is on them to show their math. You did an excellent job with the review and analysis. You owe these guys nothing.

Sorry for criticizing another site but Audiocircle has become an echo chamber of fanboys. Anything but glowing reviews for the preferred brands is viewed as an unfair attack as the response to your review demonstrated. I suspect if you review the maxed out version of these speakers, the usual suspects will just fall back on the old “some things cannot be measured” BS.
 

ctrl

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What does the 3/8" rounding of the side edges achieve?

As the story around the Encore measurement is developing with the measurement of a "golden sample" developed by GR-Research in the near future, it makes sense for me to create further simulations.

There seems to be some controversy as to what effect the rounding of the speaker side edges with a 3/8'' radius has on horizontal sound radiation.
It is therefore appropriate to answer this question/controversy by simulation.
In post#80 I had written something about it, but used a very rough model. This will be corrected in the following.

I have refined my simulation of the Encore and tried to get as close as possible to the real chassis - as good as possible on the basis of pictures, normally the chassis are measured with a caliper. Also invested more computing time for better accuracy at higher frequencies.

The first step is to compare the real Encore ASR measurement (with 1/6 oct smoothing) with the simulation (Simu crossover [email protected]).
The simulation uses 15° steps, the ASR measurement 10° steps. Therefore only the appropriate angles are compared (!! FR is normalized to 0° !!):

1596590940200.png


Since I could only estimate the waveguide of the tweeter from pictures, the simulation above 6kHz deviates from the real measurements (and that a fabric tweeter does not behave "ideally" at an early stage).
But the range 200Hz to 6kHz corresponds very well to the real measurements, which is sufficient to evaluate the rounding of the lateral edges.

Then let's take a look at the effects of the 3/8'' rounding.

1596594516223.png
1596594536962.png


As always, the frequency responses were normalized to the on-axis frequency response:

encore_belved-vs-rounded_FR.gif

In the upper treble, the frequency response is slightly smoothed, otherwise there is hardly any difference. The edge diffraction shifts slightly towards higher frequencies, as the "effective" baffle is now slightly less wide.

The fact that the horizontal radiation does not change when viewed as a whole due to such a small rounding is shown most impressively by the representation of the radiation as a sonogram/spectrogram (again normalized to the on-axis frequency response):

encore_belved-vs-rounded_Sono.gif


Wouldn't rule out the possibility of hearing a difference in direct comparison. However, the sound character of the loudspeaker will not change - obviously.
 

R Swerdlow

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What does the 3/8" rounding of the side edges achieve?

As the story around the Encore measurement is developing with the measurement of a "golden sample" developed by GR-Research in the near future, it makes sense for me to create further simulations.

There seems to be some controversy as to what effect the rounding of the speaker side edges with a 3/8'' radius has on horizontal sound radiation.
It is therefore appropriate to answer this question/controversy by simulation.
In post#80 I had written something about it, but used a very rough model. This will be corrected in the following.

I have refined my simulation of the Encore and tried to get as close as possible to the real chassis - as good as possible on the basis of pictures, normally the chassis are measured with a caliper. Also invested more computing time for better accuracy at higher frequencies.

The first step is to compare the real Encore ASR measurement (with 1/6 oct smoothing) with the simulation (Simu crossover [email protected]).
The simulation uses 15° steps, the ASR measurement 10° steps. Therefore only the appropriate angles are compared (!! FR is normalized to 0° !!):

View attachment 76675

Since I could only estimate the waveguide of the tweeter from pictures, the simulation above 6kHz deviates from the real measurements (and that a fabric tweeter does not behave "ideally" at an early stage).
But the range 200Hz to 6kHz corresponds very well to the real measurements, which is sufficient to evaluate the rounding of the lateral edges.

Then let's take a look at the effects of the 3/8'' rounding.

View attachment 76685 View attachment 76686

As always, the frequency responses were normalized to the on-axis frequency response:

View attachment 76682
In the upper treble, the frequency response is slightly smoothed, otherwise there is hardly any difference. The edge diffraction shifts slightly towards higher frequencies, as the "effective" baffle is now slightly less wide.

The fact that the horizontal radiation does not change when viewed as a whole due to such a small rounding is shown most impressively by the representation of the radiation as a sonogram/spectrogram (again normalized to the on-axis frequency response):

View attachment 76684

Wouldn't rule out the possibility of hearing a difference in direct comparison. However, the sound character of the loudspeaker will not change - obviously.
All your plots are predicted responses based upon your simulation with 3/8" radius rounded edges.

Here are measured responses of a similar 8" wide cabinet with and without ¾" radius rounded edges, measured on-axis and 15° off-axis.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nitor-with-curved-cabinets.14796/#post-468968

The 2-way speaker involved is Dennis Murphy's MBOW1 design. The woofer is the GR Research M130, the tweeter is the Hiquphon OW1, and the crossover is Dennis Murphy's design, as shown.

The results document the small changes at 4 kHz and 7 kHz when a squared edge cabinet is compared with a cabinet with ¾" rounded edges, measured on-axis and 15° off-axis. They agree with your final conclusion that the overall sound character of the speaker will not change.
 
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ctrl

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Nerd alert :eek:

Another small addition to the optimization of the Encore. Had already pointed out this possibility in post#80 - vertically shifting the drivers up to the top of the speaker cabinet.
Had said in post#80 that this arrangement of the chassis might be beneficial.
That's what we're going to look at.
1596647956620.png
1596647977678.png


First the comparison of the horizontal frequency response of the original Encore with the "upper-edge" version.
As always, the frequency responses were normalized to the on-axis frequency response:
encore_upperEdge_FR.gif


There is not a smoothing of the frequency response in all frequency ranges, but viewed as a whole, one can speak of an improvement - significantly more than with the 3/8'' rounding.

This is also clearly shown by the sonogram/spectrogram display of the radiation (again normalized to the on-axis frequency response):
encore_upperEdge_Sono.gif

However, one would still have to clarify in detail (by means of a prototype) whether radiation above 6kHz in the real loudspeaker really benefits from this.

In this case we should also take a look at the vertical radiation, as changes can be expected there as well. The negative degree range, shows the radiation upwards:

encore_upperEdge_ver_Sono.gif


It is difficult to say, there are also improvements and deterioration of radiation in certain frequency ranges. Would say undecided ;)
With this "optimization" the changes in radiation are so massive that perhaps minor changes need to be made to the crossover - or EQ.

If you move the tweeter+woofer down again a few millimeters so that the distance of the tweeter to the top edge is exactly half the distance to the side edges, the axis frequency response could still be improved a bit.
 

Thomas_A

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While you're at it perhaps you could simulate effects of the wide baffle design but large bevels.
 

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Rick Sykora

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While you're at it perhaps you could simulate effects of the wide baffle design but large bevels.

I will second that, but either on a new thread or the cabinet design one please!
 

Thomas_A

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KaiserSoze

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What does the 3/8" rounding of the side edges achieve?

As the story around the Encore measurement is developing with the measurement of a "golden sample" developed by GR-Research in the near future, it makes sense for me to create further simulations.

There seems to be some controversy as to what effect the rounding of the speaker side edges with a 3/8'' radius has on horizontal sound radiation.
It is therefore appropriate to answer this question/controversy by simulation.
In post#80 I had written something about it, but used a very rough model. This will be corrected in the following.

I have refined my simulation of the Encore and tried to get as close as possible to the real chassis - as good as possible on the basis of pictures, normally the chassis are measured with a caliper. Also invested more computing time for better accuracy at higher frequencies.

The first step is to compare the real Encore ASR measurement (with 1/6 oct smoothing) with the simulation (Simu crossover [email protected]).
The simulation uses 15° steps, the ASR measurement 10° steps. Therefore only the appropriate angles are compared (!! FR is normalized to 0° !!):

View attachment 76675

Since I could only estimate the waveguide of the tweeter from pictures, the simulation above 6kHz deviates from the real measurements (and that a fabric tweeter does not behave "ideally" at an early stage).
But the range 200Hz to 6kHz corresponds very well to the real measurements, which is sufficient to evaluate the rounding of the lateral edges.

Then let's take a look at the effects of the 3/8'' rounding.

View attachment 76685 View attachment 76686

As always, the frequency responses were normalized to the on-axis frequency response:

View attachment 76682
In the upper treble, the frequency response is slightly smoothed, otherwise there is hardly any difference. The edge diffraction shifts slightly towards higher frequencies, as the "effective" baffle is now slightly less wide.

The fact that the horizontal radiation does not change when viewed as a whole due to such a small rounding is shown most impressively by the representation of the radiation as a sonogram/spectrogram (again normalized to the on-axis frequency response):

View attachment 76684

Wouldn't rule out the possibility of hearing a difference in direct comparison. However, the sound character of the loudspeaker will not change - obviously.

Thank you for doing this. It is informative and useful. I will share a couple of thoughts.

Diffraction affects both the on-axis response and the off-axis response, and as such it is useful to be able to see how each is affected by diffraction. To explain what I mean I will refer to Amir's response plots for the X-LS Encore and for the SVS Ultra bookshelf. These two speakers share the same baffle width: 8.5" (216 mm). When you look at Amir's response plots, both of these speakers exhibit the same characteristic, telltale sign of diffraction ripple at 3.2 kHz. This characteristic, telltale sign (which I'll describe in a moment) is plainly evident in the actual response plots of both of these speakers. Yet, it is not plainly evident in your simulation plots, because in your simulation plots it is not possible to see how the on-axis response is affected by diffraction. Furthermore, the actual effect of diffraction in the off-axis response has been greatly exaggerated as a consequence of normalizing the off-axis response to the on-axis response.

The characteristic, telltale sign I am referring to is what I'll call a "pinch", alluding to the fact that the on-axis and off-axis responses appear to be pinched together at 3.2 kHz. This pinch is plainly evident in the actual response plots of both of those speakers. At this frequency, corresponding to wavelength equal to 2x baffle width, there is a diffraction-related dip in the on-axis response and a diffraction-related peak in the off-axis response. But in your simulation plots, instead of seeing this pinch, we see only an exaggerated peak in the off-axis response. We cannot be so confident that this peak is even due to diffraction per se because we don't have the confirmation we get when we see the pinch, i.e., when it is visually apparent that both the on-axis response and the off-axis response are affected at this frequency in precisely the way predicted by the theoretical understanding. (And please note that while it would be easy to say something like, "if you want to see the pinch just subtract some power from the off-axis response and add it to the on-axis response", that this would be missing the point.)


The other comment I want to make is concerned with changing the position of the tweeter, i.e., moving it higher, and using the simulation to predict the effect. If you want to see the true effect of this change, you have to look at the on-axis response. This kind of change potentially has a strong effect on the on-axis response, and there is little reason to expect it to have an appreciable effect in the off-axis response.

More than once I have suggested to people that Siegfried Linkwitz' investigation of baffle diffraction is very informative. One of the things that a careful reader of Linkwitz' writeup may notice in his sketches is the suggestion that it is advantageous for the baffle to be twice as tall as wide. (Not to suggest that this is feasible with a small bookshelf speaker.) This applies primarily in the case of a driver mounted at the center of the baffle, in which case the distance to the top and bottom edges will be exactly twice the distance to the lateral edges. The reason this works is that the ripple peaks associated with the shorter of the two distances line up with the ripple dips associated with the longer of the two distances. (The prominent 1st peak escapes unscathed, always.) The effect that occurs when the tweeter is located 1/3 of the way from one side edge and 2/3 of the way from the other side edge is similar. In this case the two most important distances are again in the ratio 2:1.

When a waveguide is used all of this becomes less important because the waveguide largely prevents the wavefront from illuminating the edges of the baffle. But if the investigation is concerned with small bookshelf speakers that do not use a waveguide (or that use only a small, shallow waveguide), then diffraction ripple matters, and when so the effect of diffraction ripple on the on-axis response matters at least as much as the effect on the off-axis response.

If we consider the case where the tweeter is located equidistant from both lateral edges, the distance from the tweeter to the top edge (the vertical distance) should ideally be 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/8 or 2x or 4x the distance to the lateral edges, in order to get that same mutual cancellation effect, i.e., where the dips and peaks mutually cancel. And since it obviously is not practical (for a small bookshelf speaker) for this distance to be as great as the baffle width, it follows that the optimal solution is for the vertical distance to be 1/2 the distance to the lateral edges, i.e., 1/4 of the baffle width. For a baffle 8.5 inches wide, this distance will be 2.125" (54 mm), which is just barely adequate for a typical tweeter with a 4" flange. (This is pretty much what you did when you moved the tweeter, and if you had shown us the effect on the on-axis response ...)

For the case where the tweeter is laterally offset from the center, 1/3 of the distance from one side edge, the optimal solution is not so obvious. If the vertical distance is half of 1/3 of the distance from the side edge (i.e., 1/6 of the baffle width), then for a baffle that is 8.5" wide, the vertical distance will be 1.4" (36 mm), which won't be possible except in the case of tweeters with no flange and no waveguide. If the tweeter has a more typical 4" flange, then this doesn't work. The only indicated solution is for the vertical distance to be 4/3 the baffle width, which isn't feasible for a small bookshelf speaker. Thus, the best solution for a small bookshelf speaker might be for the tweeter to be centered between the side edges and with the vertical distance 1/4 the baffle width.
 

mhardy6647

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Not sure when, where, or if there's a good place to mention this here :) -- but yesterday I prosecuted a two-week swap of little stand-mount two-ways with a hifi colleague up (more or less) in this neck of the woods. He took home my pair of ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 (what a clever name... :facepalm:) and I brought home a pair of these...

1597265638170.png

1597265656256.png


The keen-eyed will notice an unexpected little toggle switch on the tweeter -- that's some sort of defeatable little mod to the HF XO that, according to their owner, extends/flattens the HF response of the system. "up" is on.

http://gr-research.com/paradox1.aspx
 

Cujobob

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I have owned many GR and Danny-designed speakers. I don’t know that his tweaks make a difference or not, but I know his speakers sound tremendous. I’ve had AV123 speakers he designed that had basic crossovers and also GR specific designs with the best of the best. I currently am listening to his NX Studio monitors that Danny built himself.

With that out of the way, I’ve owned many other speakers and few come close to the detail retrieval and natural-ness to the delivery of Danny’s designs. His money is often made selling the tweaks, but he definitely believes in them. His AV123 speakers often had upgraded capacitors where they could have gone with cheaper parts.

It’s fair to question tweaks given all the snake oil on the market, but we shouldn’t let that dominate the conversation as it has. This is a solid pair of speakers in their basic kit form, it was designed like 15 years ago and it was sold as a finished speaker for around $200 at the time. That was an amazing speaker when released and the fact it still holds its own is pretty amazing.
 

jlucas

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Quick update: Rick has been going back and forth with Danny. Where we landed is that Danny will be sending me a pair he has built for testing. I am assuming his pair has all of his optional components.
When are these measurements going to be shared?
 

Rick Sykora

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When are these measurements going to be shared?

Amir is pretty backlogged and I did request that he test the S2000s first.

Since he is still busy with his harvest too, will be better when Amir has time to critically listen to the basic and premium speaker. Nobody is expecting any change in measurements (including the designer). Even the basic crossover uses quality components, so any audible difference will have the same caveats that any other subjective evaluation has (equipment and condition diffs, expectation and potential other bias, etc.).

If you want to hear some major improvement to a basic X-LS encore, try the tower cabinet. However, at the price for the premium version, IME you can get better value from numerous other speakers.
 
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johnp98

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Do people know how these compare to other DIY speakers (and what the best DIY speakers are for various price points)? Is there a master list of all the DIY speakers that amir has reviewed?


The reason I ask is because I have the DIYSoundGroup HTM 12s and greatly enjoy them, but don't think any of their products have been reviewed here as of yet.
 

Rick Sykora

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Do people know how these compare to other DIY speakers (and what the best DIY speakers are for various price points)? Is there a master list of all the DIY speakers that amir has reviewed?


The reason I ask is because I have the DIYSoundGroup HTM 12s and greatly enjoy them, but don't think any of their products have been reviewed here as of yet.

HT12s are a bit bigger than Amir tends to test. Funding aside, diysoundgroup is having major availability issues too. I bought the Carmody S2000s from them.

Have build most of the DIY speakers for ASR testing except the Swans.
The list is included in my signature line and details are included in the overall speaker review tracking. :cool:
 
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Not sure when, where, or if there's a good place to mention this here :) -- but yesterday I prosecuted a two-week swap of little stand-mount two-ways with a hifi colleague up (more or less) in this neck of the woods. He took home my pair of ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2 (what a clever name... :facepalm:) and I brought home a pair of these...

View attachment 77803
View attachment 77804

The keen-eyed will notice an unexpected little toggle switch on the tweeter -- that's some sort of defeatable little mod to the HF XO that, according to their owner, extends/flattens the HF response of the system. "up" is on.

http://gr-research.com/paradox1.aspx
So what do you think? How old would they be? I bet they still sound great.
 
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I have owned many GR and Danny-designed speakers. I don’t know that his tweaks make a difference or not, but I know his speakers sound tremendous. I’ve had AV123 speakers he designed that had basic crossovers and also GR specific designs with the best of the best. I currently am listening to his NX Studio monitors that Danny built himself.

With that out of the way, I’ve owned many other speakers and few come close to the detail retrieval and natural-ness to the delivery of Danny’s designs. His money is often made selling the tweaks, but he definitely believes in them. His AV123 speakers often had upgraded capacitors where they could have gone with cheaper parts.

It’s fair to question tweaks given all the snake oil on the market, but we shouldn’t let that dominate the conversation as it has. This is a solid pair of speakers in their basic kit form, it was designed like 15 years ago and it was sold as a finished speaker for around $200 at the time. That was an amazing speaker when released and the fact it still holds its own is pretty amazing.
How do the NX Studios compare to the XLS-Encores?
 
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