Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[dougi]

@dougi Would you want to try with side A track 1 too? A1 and B1 on my CA-STR-1007 don't generate quite the same results, unfortunately...

I will try side 1. I can't remember which one I used for the older post.

 

[aaaakkkk]

Where on the graph can I see -2.5 dB on the red line?

 

[aaaakkkk]

That's a great question. This is a "diamond-only retip."

Most likely, the damper needs to be replaced, and in the worst case, when there was a blow to the cantilever, the deformed steel wire needs to be replaced. These works themselves are much more complicated than simply replacing a diamond.

 

[USER]

Where on the graph can I see -2.5 dB on the red line?

Good catch. Have you seen this issue before?

Things seems fine when "file0norm" is activated.

Any thoughts, @JP? I can forward you the file. The only thing I can think of is that this is by far the worse performing cartridge in terms of channel balance that I have seen measured. Could it be related to this?

 

[JP]

As the original use case was mono, the code assumes the high delta will be "+", and the low delta will be "-", as the files were always normalized at 1k. In the example above it should be +1.7dB, rather than -1.7dB. If the right channel were below 0dB it'd read "+-X dB, -XdB".

Will fix it when I've a chance - still in the middle of winterizing everything.

 

[USER]

Just so you all know, I'm posting the second re-tipping example on Halloween. Stay tuned...

 

[USER]

Audio-Technica AT-ART9XA with Issue
Click to increase size

EDIT: This cartridge was sent to Audio-Technica for inspection and it was determined that there was an issue with either the stylus assembly or the generator. The good news is that it will be replaced by them.

Notes

• The second set of measurements has FR corrected to my CA-TRS-1007
• Typo: the load resistance is actually 110Ω, not 110kΩ
• This is a high-end Audio-Technica cartridge with a nude, shibata diamond and boron cantilever
• We can thank @mackat for these results
  • He purchased this cartridge with "30 hours" of use from a well-rated seller in Norway
  • The distortion is much too high for the condition
    • He measured it too late to force a PayPal return
      • It's spooky season here at the old phono cartridge measurement thread
• If you are going to invest in cartridges it helps to have a test record and/or microscope!
  • They are two of the best purchases you can make if you are into vinyl
  • I personally never use a cartridge without scrutinizing stylus condition first
    • As you have seen here numerous times, even when buying new you are going to run into issues
• Wear really does not seem to affect FR too much as CA-TRS-1007-conversion results are similar to the official ones
  • This is a major reason why it is easy to get scammed when buying used
  • Set-up and phono stage RIAA likely accounts for the minor difference above 10kHz
    • More, both these and the official measurements are slightly off in terms of azimuth adjustment
• Update: the distortion is likely caused by an issue with the generator
  
  • We may learn more about this once the replacement is measured
• Here we have a slightly different Audio-Technica FR curve
  • The high frequency resonance is pushed a little bit further out than usual
  • This is designated an Audio-Technica "Excellence Product"
    • And here we see that a slightly flatter FR is one of the major distinctions of their highest-end products

Edit: It's interesting that the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity review may have cost Audio-Technica sales. Not knowing much about test records they incorrectly state that the CBS STR-100 FR is correct and, worse, that its crosstalk measurements are valid. (It's true that without adjusting for recording characteristic the CBS record FR may look more "correct" than the JVC TRS-1007, but the test records themselves explain how to properly adjust for it.) Audio-Technica pushed back in the comments but the reviewer doubled down. As mentioned in this thread already, their results are often suspiciously wonky (like this one) and they never account for possible set-up issues. Be advised that their measurements are not reliable.

 

[JP]

@mackat have you visually confirmed the stylus condition?

 

[mackat]

@mackat have you visually confirmed the stylus condition?

No, I don’t have the necessary equipment.

 

[morillon]

110kohm??
a mc...110ohm?

 

[mackat]

110kohm??
a mc...110ohm?

Yes, that was a typo.

 

[aaaakkkk]

• • • But here we clearly see that it is completely spent

By what signs do we see this? Such channel imbalance may be due to poorly aligned coils if there was an impact on the cantilever. Without a visual inspection of the contact surfaces of the stylus, there is no certainty about its condition.

 

[USER]

By what signs do we see this? Such channel imbalance may be due to poorly aligned coils if there was an impact on the cantilever. Without a visual inspection of the contact surfaces of the stylus, there is no certainty about its condition.

The distortion. An Audio-Technica cartridge like this would not break the -20 dB threshold without wear. See this explanation I have posted along with examples and photographic evidence. I am still working on it and welcome feedback and critique. But I have posted numerous times about this throughout the years as I have measured known worn cartridges and am comfortable making such a call and relying on measurements to "see" wear. In fact I deliberately seek out and measure every possible problem in order for us to learn more about measurements. On queue for tomorrow is another measurement that I have personally taken of heavy wear that includes a picture of the wear. (It has been posted several times before but it was not processed with the latest version of the script.)

 

[aaaakkkk]

The distortion. An Audio-Technica cartridge like this would not break the -20 dB threshold without wear. See this explanation I have posted along with examples and photographic evidence. I am still working on it and welcome feedback and critique. But I have posted numerous times about this throughout the years as I have measured known worn cartridges and am comfortable making such a call and relying on measurements to "see" wear. In fact I deliberately seek out and measure every possible problem in order for us to learn more about measurements. On queue for tomorrow is another measurement that I have personally taken of heavy wear that includes a picture of the wear. (It has been posted several times before but it was not processed with the latest version of the script.)

It wasn't a criticism, just a question. I use machine translation, so my speech may seem rude, please don't mind.

But it seems to me that in this case we have a cartridge with a mechanical problem. Is 15dB separation at 1kHz normal for the CBS-100?

And a very strange graph from AT itself. According to this graph, the separation is 23 dB at 1 kHz, and on their website they claim more than 30 dB. How do we even understand this?

 

[USER]

But it seems to me that in this case we have a cartridge with a mechanical problem. Is 15dB separation at 1kHz normal for the CBS-100?

And a very strange graph from AT itself. According to this graph, the separation is 23 dB at 1 kHz, and on their website they claim more than 30 dB. How do we even understand this?

The CBS STR-100 crosstalk results are deeply problematic so you can ignore them. They are severely limited and unreliable and are not provided as valid. Further, his copy seems worse than mine so the measurement is simply wrong. (I offer a test record comparison in my very first measurement on this thread if you want to see the difference between CA-TRS-1007 with what seems to be a good copy of CBS STR-100.) As far as the AT graph goes, I find it confusing. Perhaps someone else can clarify what it is saying. More, my DIN 45 543 seems to consistently show a 5 dB improvement over my CA-TRS-1007, which is why I am trying to provide it now with my posts.

So, in sum, it is very difficult to get accurate crosstalk measurements as most test records are not good for them and AT could do a better job explaining how they got their result. But in general I have never found any reason to doubt them. They use JVC TRS-1007, which is likely the highest quality test record, though there is also the possibility that crosstalk figures may at times be better than spec!

 

[aaaakkkk]

What's wrong with him? The paper on which it is printed is universal for different meanings.

 

[USER]

I don't understand your question, sorry.

 

[aaaakkkk]

What's wrong with him? The paper on which it is printed is universal for different meanings.

This was a question about the plot that AT presented.

I looked at the documentation that they put in the boxes with cartridges, in these documentation there are graphs and there really are numbers of about 30 dB at 1 kHz.

Probably the crosstalk is given for a reference cartridge, in which the diamond is of the correct shape and attached to the cantilever at the correct angles and in which the coils are aligned correctly. The same cartridges that go on sale have a wide variation in parameters.

 

[morillon]

that these dates are of no interest because the brands have the same difficulties as the participants in the discussions here..... linked to the records they have...
(remade-standardized disks with specific test should be available for all manufacturers)

 

[aaaakkkk]

that these dates are of no interest because the brands have the same difficulties as the participants in the discussions here..... linked to the records they have...
(remade-standardized disks with specific test should be available for all manufacturers)

Do you think the JVC TRS-1007 also has differences? I haven't seen any complaints about these discs.