Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

[USER]

The V15VMR was according to them, either flat to 10kHz with 5dB dive to 20kHz, or a straight downtilt of 5dB from 1kHz to 20kHz.

Yes, there may be two different frequency response curves out there for the cartridge with one more downward sloping. But I don't think it is what they say there exactly. Plenty of proof that fully flat ones exist as I show. Perhaps there was a change in the manufacturing process at some point. Or perhaps it points to suspension issues. In the case of the ones you mention test record warp could be to blame for some of what they saw.

I will be testing 8 different VN5MR styli to see if there is something more conclusive to be said about this. But not for a long while so don't hold your breath for it. I compared 6 or so in the MC MM MI thread and believe I saw both patterns.

 

[JP]

They gave a range via a graphic.

 

[mackat]

Who grabbed that sealed MC-4?

It wasn’t me this time

 

[JP]

I can also live vicariously through JP and his collection of the best cartridges ever made. Speaking of which, when are your measurements trickling in?

Let's see...

There was a lot of rain while we were in London and Paris a week ago, and when we got home the smart switches for our dock patio lights were possessed as the conduit partially filled with water. Yesterday I pulled 7 #10 and 7 #12 out of 200' of conduit to inspect the insulation, which was fine. Put it all back and now need to figure out different switches to use.

Need to do an oil change on the car for a road trip upstate to see a friend this weekend. Will likely do the front brakes at the same time.

This morning a hydraulic cylinder on the boat lift blew. That'll be day and I need low wind to float it off the bottom to move it, put it back, etc. Also need to figure out where to stash the boat in the mean time. Also have no idea if parts are readily available.

Yard isn't done yet. Also want to run another 200' of conduit for patio speakers as that's a blocker for some the yard work - don't want to do things twice.

I think it'll be awhile.

 

[Balle Clorin]

TECHNICS / National PANASONIC EPC-270CII no1


No azimuth optimization

Spoiler: Body no 2

Spoiler: optimized azimut

Spoiler: Cartridge electrical model

Spoiler: Stylus

new Magnet

Original magnet below

Spoiler: Loading, need help to understand..

The funny thing is this cartridge/Stylus combination seems insensitive to capacitive loading. The cables are 125pF and a ran in RIAA from 50 to 220 and 220+70, that is 175 to 415 pF with out any noticable change ine peak response. but boteh with 50pF and 220pF on the RIA it reacts to Reisstive loading, 32kohm and total 415pF seem to be the bes i got so far with a the Cambridge CP2

• Cartridge: TECHNICS / National PANASONIC EPC-270CII. Have have two bodies cart 1 has better channel balance.
• Stylus condition: <1hr. NEW replacement Tonar 6449 Hypereliptocal (Made in japan, no Jico stamp)
• Test record: ClearAudio TRS-1007 side A track 1&2 L/R stereo. One significant warp
• Turntable and arm: Sony SP-212 from junk sale,30USD but speed is correct Peak wow 0.11%
• Tracking force: 1.75g
• Phono stage and loading settings: Cambridge CP2 220pF 47k. Tascam US-144mk2 USB Audio interface to PC
  • Capacitance and impedance: 220pF fixed + 125pF cables=345pF, 47k ohm
• Cable capacitance
  • 125pF cables
• Recording: no adjustment on balance, Azimuth adjustment on cartridge, 16 bit 96kHz.Recording characteristic RIAA.

Comments:

• Managed to get good channel separation from 25/40 to 30/31 on body 1. Unusually good for this test record.
• Body 1 had better channel balance 0.2 vs 1db or so.
• How the stylus is isnserted affect the top resonance: Pushed firmly in= Higher peak and more raggyness , , Gently , not forced to the end= more even less spike/raggedness
• High distortion at 7kHz

This was the last cartridge in my inventory, bye for now.

Spoiler: Body 2 with straigthended bent cantilever original stylus

TECHNICS / National PANASONIC EPC-270CII no1, STRAIGTHENED ORIGINAL BENT STYLUS

FOLLOW UP FROM ABOVE #126

• Cartridge: TECHNICS / National PANASONIC EPC-270CII. Have have two bodies cart 1 has better channel balance.
• Stylus condition: ORIGINAL CONICAL STYLUS, BENT CANTILEVER, STRAIGTHENED
• Test record: ClearAudio TRS-1007 side A track 1&2 L/R stereo. One significant warp
• Turntable and arm: Sony SP-212 from junk sale,30USD but speed is correct Peak wow 0.11%
• Tracking force: 1.75g
• Phono stage and loading settings: Cambridge CP2 220pF 47k. Tascam US-144mk2 USB Audio interface to PC
  • Capacitance and impedance: 220pF fixed + 125pF cables=345pF, 47k ohm
• Cable capacitance
  • 125pF cables
• Recording: no adjustment on balance, Azimuth adjustment on cartridge, 16 bit 96kHz.Recording characteristic RIAA.

Comments:

• Same azimuth adjustment as with the Tonar Hyperelliptical
  • Crosstalk increase from -30 to -20db. clearly styulus related
• Cantilever was clearly bent gradually to the side. Straightened with a tweezer, visually looks OK now
• Still high distortion at 5-10kHz

original stylus data

 

[dlaloum]

TECHNICS / National PANASONIC EPC-270CII no1


No azimuth optimization
View attachment 301225

Spoiler: Body no 2

View attachment 301226

Spoiler: optimized azimut

View attachment 301228

View attachment 301229

Spoiler: Cartridge electrical model

View attachment 301231

Spoiler: Stylus

View attachment 301232
View attachment 301233
new Magnet
View attachment 301234
Original magnet below
View attachment 301237
View attachment 301235

View attachment 301239

• Cartridge: TECHNICS / National PANASONIC EPC-270CII. Have have two bodies cart 1 has better channel balance.
• Stylus condition: <1hr. NEW replacement Tonar 6449 Hypereliptocal (Made in japan, no Jico stamp)
• Test record: ClearAudio TRS-1007 side A track 1&2 L/R stereo. One significant warp
• Turntable and arm: Sony SP-212 from junk sale,30USD but speed is correct Peak wow 0.11%
• Tracking force: 1.75g
• Phono stage and loading settings: Cambridge CP2 220pF 47k. Tascam US-144mk2 USB Audio interface to PC
  • Capacitance and impedance: 220pF fixed + 125pF cables=345pF, 47k ohm
• Cable capacitance
  • 125pF cables
• Recording: no adjustment on balance, Azimuth adjustment on cartridge, 16 bit 96kHz.Recording characteristic RIAA.

Comments:

• Managed to get good channel separation from 25/40 to 30/31 on body 1. Unusually good for this test record.
• Body 1 had better channel balance 0.5 vs 1db or so.
• How the stylus is isnserted affect the top resonance: Pushed firmly in= Higher peaj and mor reggebtless, , Gently , bor forced to the endd= move even less spike/raggedness
• High distortion at 7kHz

This was the last cartridge in my inventory, bye for now.

The 7khz distortion peak probably indicates the cantilever resonance - it's a bit of a porker...
Would be interesting to see the same cartridge measured with a SAS stylus (which are available for it)...

 

[Balle Clorin]

TECHNICS / National PANASONIC EPC-270CII no1. More load tuning. Left channel vs load change

Update to post above, cant edit it.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

The V15VMR was according to them, either flat to 10kHz with 5dB dive to 20kHz, or a straight downtilt of 5dB from 1kHz to 20kHz. Yes, there may be two different frequency response curves out there for the cartridge with one more downward sloping. But I don't think it is what they say there...

audiosciencereview.com

Edit: Blue curve is the 47k cases. Note Stylus is new Tonar 6449 Hyperelliptical

Lowe capacitance helps , but more drastic measures are required, see below.

 

[dlaloum]

TECHNICS / National PANASONIC EPC-270CII no1. More load tuning. Left channel vs load change

Update to post above, cant edit it.

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

The V15VMR was according to them, either flat to 10kHz with 5dB dive to 20kHz, or a straight downtilt of 5dB from 1kHz to 20kHz. Yes, there may be two different frequency response curves out there for the cartridge with one more downward sloping. But I don't think it is what they say there...

audiosciencereview.com

Lowe capacitance helps , but more drastic measures are required, see below.
View attachment 302401

View attachment 302402

View attachment 302404

Nice - I too have found that with some cartridge/stylus combos, 27k with a high C load seems to bring them back to where they should be - you lose the stuff over 15khz sadly... but the rest of the range goes right to where it should be...

This is using the LCR EQ of the loading to balance out the resonance caused by the relatively high effective mass of the cantilever... you need it less if the cantilever is lighter - but sadly this is pretty much where we are with the styli available today.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Thorens TPU 257=Audio-Technica AT3600=Rega Carbon with AT91R stylus


Optimized azimuth

Spoiler: FR before azimuth adjustment

After adjustment 5degree tilt!

Spoiler: TPU257 vs AT91R left channel

• Cartridge: Body=Thorens TPU 257=Audio-Technica AT3600=Rega Carbon. Fitted with AT91R stylus
• Stylus condition new <2 hrs on vinyl,
• Test record: ClearAudio TRS-1007 side A track 1&2 L/R stereo
• Turntable and arm: Sony PS -212 Direct drive. Measured peak wow <0.11%.
• Tracking force: 2g
• Phono stage and loading settings: Cambridge CP2
  • Capacitance and impedance: 220pF fixed, 47k ohm . Total 125pF on cables= 345pF total
  • Low rumble filter active
• Cable capacitance
  • 125pF
• Azimuth, started at crosstalk -18/-32dB, spec is -18, before adjustment to -26.5/-28.1dB. Had to tilt 5degrees to get this ,( within stylus vendor spec). Worst I have encountered
• Balance, Spec 2.5 db, after azimuth adjustment balance is 0.3-0.7db 1kHz
• ADC:Tascam US.144mkII 15kOhm input impedance, may give bass rolloff on some RIAA
• Recording: no adjustment on balance, Azimuth Optimized for Clearadio CA-TRS1007 frequency sweep side A 1-2 96k in Tascam, PC
• Compare with post 35 with TPU257 in SME V, a lot more wiggling <300hz on FR on the Sony PS-212 with plastic headshell….

 

[USER]

Great work on the adjustment. The CA test record looks pretty good for crosstalk above -30dB--at least for the measurements, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[DSJR]

PLEASE GUYS - when testing older cartridges such as the Technics 205mk2, do bear in mind the ROOM TEMPERATURE with some of them. The 205mk2 was marked down heavily in HiFi Choice for this one main reason and it seems the now revered classic 205mk3 had the suspension changed to remove this. the B&O MMC20 models suffered this way too - can't remember the MMC 1 - 5 range which replaced them. The first B&O SP15 recommended 72 degrees F as a minimum and the Beogram 4000 it was fitted to left powered, would warm the air under the dust cover enough to help here (I was told by a 'Beoperson' at the time). My MMC20CL definitely sounds 'off' in winter months and gently laid back in the Summer when I've played it...

Old Shures seem stable enough over the years, but just maybe, a warmer 'US' room might give a flatter measured response to a cooler UK one?

Just a thought...

 

[USER]

Time to cause some trouble...

Audio-Technica AT110E
Click to increase size

Notes

• A very popular "step-up" Audio-Technica cartridge from the 1980s-90s
• NOS, 0.4 x 0.7 mil, elliptical stylus
• I updated the measurements
  • We can see the Audio-Technica house FR curve better with improved set-up
• Most people will load this at around 200pF
• I could not get the right and left channels parallel
  • Better azimuth adjustment/crosstalk matching did not improve it
  • Cartridge channel inductance measurements show 99% match, so it is not that
  • Could it be related to the diamond?
    • If it is an uneven cut or wear, could it balance out and improve over time?
  • The left channel results are correct
• One problem with old cartridges and styli is that you never know what you are getting
  • Could some of the remaining styli be remainder b-stock?

 

[USER]

Audio-Technica AT110E with heavy wear and suspension issue
Click to increase size

Notes

• Use this as a reference for things to watch out for in your results
• The droop is a sign of a suspension issue
  • Here the damper was hardened
• The distortion--above -20 dB especially--is a sign of heavy wear
  • The picture likely shows a "chisel point," which is as bad as it gets
  • Note that as the FR droops down distortion does as well
    • So it looks better than it actually is

Here are results from using rubber restorer (Sonax GummiPfleger) on the hardened damper that is causing suspension issues. Do note the lower capacitance settings from above, which show how much I was able to bring up the droop at each step. Stylus wear related distortion is much more evident here.

I have had some limited success in restoring a similar issue and I will post that result in the future. I simply do not understand people that attempt to fix styli by ear.

 

[USER]

Here we go...

Audio-Technica AT110E middle record measurements

Notes

• These measurements were taken from the CA-TRS-1007 track 9 sweeps located in the middle of the record
• My turntables are adjusted to Stevenson alignment
• Amplitude is known to attenuate as the cartridge moves toward the inner groove
  • Good record mastering can account for some of this
• "Bigger" diamond shapes are known to show larger differences
  • This is one reason micro-linear styli are highly recommended (in addition to longer life)
• Are we seeing this phenomenon here?
• Are these middle FR sweeps dependable?
• Is this result typical of a 0.4 x 0.7 mil elliptical stylus?
• Note also differences in distortion and crosstalk
• If the results hold, is there something to the Audio-Technica tuning?
  • Note that I don't think this cartridge is a great example of it
  • And how should we best judge measurements and proper set-up?

I will be attempting to confirm my results with the Shure V15 V-MR this week. I ask that those that can explore this phenomenon please do so as well.

 

[dlaloum]

From memory, I believe that the AT110 is the same core generator as the AT95/VM95 - the mounting of the generator is slightly different - so as to make needle exchange between the two series more difficult

 

[Balle Clorin]

My CA TRS1007 also show less treble peak / more drop at the inner tracks

Track 1 vs 9

 

[Balle Clorin]

B&K test record same sweep Hz, outer end inner track on test record

 

[USER]

B&K test record same sweep Hz, outer end inner track on test record
View attachment 304278

View attachment 304279

Can you help me understand the lateral and vertical measurements?

In terms of the CA record, one question is if we can show different drop rates for different stylus shapes. If you are able to run some graphs from it I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[JP]

With an ML at the levels we see on test record sweep tracks there should be very little difference. Below is TRS-1005. Ignore the left dataset "Exact", as those numbers were the script output right at 10 and 20kHz, whereas the right dataset is an average of 9.5-10.5kHz and 19.5-20.5kHz.

 

[USER]

VTF effect on Crosstalk

Here's something interesting for you all that shows up well in measurements. Plus it doubles as a sneak preview of some very interesting cartridge measurements that are coming up.


New member @melloncolliecat has been kind enough to let me share these work-in-progress measurements as he makes final adjustments. He had been using a CBS STR-100 Issue 1 that had some issues and generously purchased a CA-TRS-1007 this week, which will provide us really nice results. So round of applause.

The Empire 2000Z (a cartridge I really, really wanted to see) here has a recommended tracking force of 1g (range is 0.75-1.25g) but there seems to be some sort of compatibility issue as it results in a lot of clicks and pops. Perhaps it is the tonearm but we are not exactly sure. At 1g, it is particularly sensitive to VTF and so it is useful to see how adjustments can affect results. Results may not be typical and the take is obvious but it is all still good to see, stick to the recommended settings