Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

[CCCC]

Dirac Live is roughly on a par with Audyssey... (I find it better, but that is a debate that goes back and forth) - Dirac DLBC does things with the subs that Audyssey cannot match... Audyssey SubEQ (usually included with any XT32 implementation) can do a little more sub integration than Dirac Live...

So yeah, you have to decide what level of sub integration/tuning you want/need.... DLBC gets expensive, and the next step up, to Dirac ART will be even more... but ART does some things that nothing else short of Trinnov seems to do.

So yeah, if you have an AVR with either of Dirac Live or Audyssey already bundled into the base price/package - that is a great value deal, and provides 80% of the achievable benefits.... but if you want to push for the last 20%... it's gonna cost.
Dirac ART at this stage is by far likely to be the cheapest integrated option on the market (once available for Denon, Onkyo etc...)

what is Audyssey SubEQ?

 

[IamJF]

You can have ART without subwoofers and without DLBC. This is for the theoretical 2 ch with Dirac product.

If you have even one subwoofer at all and you want Dirac ART, you will ALSO need to have a DLBC license even though the conventional DLBC algorithms are not used, but the ART algorithms.

Just don't make it too easy for customers ... who is doing marketing there?

 

[ChenHui]

This is the first time I've seen a DAC with so many channels. Does it support Dolby Atmos and DTS:X? Where can I buy a matching amplifier for it?

 

[peng]

what is Audyssey SubEQ?

The official Audyssey response to the question:

Audyssey LabsFebruary 06, 2012 17:01
MultEQ XT32 is the flagship version of our technology to measure and correct room acoustical problems. Sub EQ HT is a method we came up with to deal with multiple subs. If you only have one sub then it's not in use. The idea is to first measure each sub separately, then apply delay and level settings so that the two subs are now time and level aligned.

Most Audyssey related questions and answers can be found in the website linked below, if not, ask them and you can expect a response within a couple of days. If it is questions related to the $20 MultEQ Editor app, then you need to ask Denon or Marantz, because that app was done by D+M, not Audyssey.

https://ask.audyssey.com/hc/en-us

 

[peng]

$800 for Dirac is a nonsense having free alternatives like Audyssey ONE or other calibration systems included in the cost of the device (e.g. ARC)

As suggested before, if you feel that way, then wait until the 30% (approx.) is back. Also, since D+M/Masimo has now included the basic bass management features with the DL, if you have not more than two subs, you can skip the BC license and still expect excellent results.

 

[CCCC]

The official Audyssey response to the question:

Audyssey LabsFebruary 06, 2012 17:01
MultEQ XT32 is the flagship version of our technology to measure and correct room acoustical problems. Sub EQ HT is a method we came up with to deal with multiple subs. If you only have one sub then it's not in use. The idea is to first measure each sub separately, then apply delay and level settings so that the two subs are now time and level aligned.

Most Audyssey related questions and answers can be found in the website linked below, if not, ask them and you can expect a response within a couple of days. If it is questions related to the $20 MultEQ Editor app, then you need to ask Denon or Marantz, because that app was done by D+M, not Audyssey.

https://ask.audyssey.com/hc/en-us

Ok thanks but it is not a separate system, is included in XT32

 

[peng]

Ok thanks but it is not a separate system, is included in XT32

That is basically correct. The response from Audyssey posted was from 2012, at the time there were AVRs, such as some Onkyo models, that included XT32 without Sub EQ HT. Recent models that come with XT32, will have SubEQ HT as well.

 

[Oddball]

Just to expand, Audyssey also supports directional bass mode in 2023/4 models, which should work a bit differently than SubEQ HT. As I understand it, SubEQ HT would also equalize the subs as a group (averaging multiple sub response, although that is not in the 2012 response), while in the directional mode I understand it would EQ each sub individually (without averaging).

I tried directional mode and did not sound that great in my room, so never took any measurements. But judging by the sound, subs were not playing as a team. Perhaps there might be a way to add additional REW filters with MultiEQ X to fix this issue with directional bass - for those that might be interested. Not sure if I will ever venture there.

 

[hwest]

Just to expand, Audyssey also supports directional bass mode in 2023/4 models, which should work a bit differently than SubEQ HT. As I understand it, SubEQ HT would also equalize the subs as a group (averaging multiple sub response, although that is not in the 2012 response), while in the directional mode I understand it would EQ each sub individually (without averaging).

I tried directional mode and did not sound that great in my room, so never took any measurements. But judging by the sound, subs were not playing as a team. Perhaps there might be a way to add additional REW filters with MultiEQ X to fix this issue with directional bass - for those that might be interested. Not sure if I will ever venture there.

That's in line with I saw using Audyssey and Dirac vs Anthem ARC. ARC does a great job mixing in the bass with the mains, it just does even running REW showed the same great measurements and I can do 4 independent subs on my AVM90. I'm beginning to wonder if my setup is sounding as good as that Lyndorf system I shied away from due to price. Folks suggesting that a MiniDSP is required for bass are just completely wrong, at least on the 90 they are not sure about the 70 or MRX models as they tend to have less options.

 

[ban25]

Just to expand, Audyssey also supports directional bass mode in 2023/4 models, which should work a bit differently than SubEQ HT. As I understand it, SubEQ HT would also equalize the subs as a group (averaging multiple sub response, although that is not in the 2012 response), while in the directional mode I understand it would EQ each sub individually (without averaging).

I tried directional mode and did not sound that great in my room, so never took any measurements. But judging by the sound, subs were not playing as a team. Perhaps there might be a way to add additional REW filters with MultiEQ X to fix this issue with directional bass - for those that might be interested. Not sure if I will ever venture there.

It's not EQing the subs so much as it's just directing some localized content (e.g. FR low-frequency content to FR sub). The case for directional bass has not been made, IMO, because it runs counter to the whole idea of using multiple subs to smooth out the response throughout the room and eliminate room modes. Unsurprisingly, it's not available when Dirac is in use.

 

[Hayabusa]

It's not EQing the subs so much as it's just directing some localized content (e.g. FR low-frequency content to FR sub). The case for directional bass has not been made, IMO, because it runs counter to the whole idea of using multiple subs to smooth out the response throughout the room and eliminate room modes. Unsurprisingly, it's not available when Dirac is in use.

Would have been perfect if stereo (directional) bass would have been treated by audysey channel by channel but LFE combined... No idea what they actually do....

 

[Oddball]

It's not EQing the subs so much as it's just directing some localized content (e.g. FR low-frequency content to FR sub). The case for directional bass has not been made, IMO, because it runs counter to the whole idea of using multiple subs to smooth out the response throughout the room and eliminate room modes. Unsurprisingly, it's not available when Dirac is in use.

I think that case for directional bass could be rare or even very rare, but some mega bass systems might benefit from it (think 3 stacked mega subs in each corner) to the extent that the owners can hear or feel (or at least think they hear or feel) the difference. I will certainly not add 8 more subs just to experience mega directional bass though. While definitively lots/or all (different views by different people, also depends on crossover) of sub content can not be localized, the pressure coming from the subs could, especially in smaller/medium rooms.

Both Storm and Trinnov bass management systems have this option, now came down to the crowds with D&M implementation. I am not really interested in it as don't have a mega system. But as noted, the fact that subs are not EQ'd as a group could be potentially fixed on D&M by importing relevant REW filters. I have heard a Storm system that was using Storm bass management with REW filters (custom calibration) with advanced bass routing functions, and it did sound pretty darn good, perhaps even awesome.

Dirac Live or DLBC might be great bass management systems, but sure as hell they are not very flexible. To some that is a good thing, to some it might not be. It's definitively great that more and more options are becoming available so each can choose their own.

 

[CCCC]

Just to expand, Audyssey also supports directional bass mode in 2023/4 models, which should work a bit differently than SubEQ HT. As I understand it, SubEQ HT would also equalize the subs as a group (averaging multiple sub response, although that is not in the 2012 response), while in the directional mode I understand it would EQ each sub individually (without averaging).

I tried directional mode and did not sound that great in my room, so never took any measurements. But judging by the sound, subs were not playing as a team. Perhaps there might be a way to add additional REW filters with MultiEQ X to fix this issue with directional bass - for those that might be interested. Not sure if I will ever venture there.

I tried Directional bass and I did not like it. I only have 3 subs so no ideal

 

[dlaloum]

what is Audyssey SubEQ?

It is Audyssey's basic attempt at integrating multiple subs, it tries to phase and time align them at the MLP, and match their volumes - so nothing as sophisticated as DLBC or ART... but it does do basic integration. - usually (always?) included with XT32

 

[IamJF]

Would have been perfect if stereo (directional) bass would have been treated by audysey channel by channel but LFE combined... No idea what they actually do....

One moment - there is no "directional" bass in stereo? What do you mean with that?

 

[dlaloum]

One moment - there is no "directional" bass in stereo? What do you mean with that?

It is partly true in various ways...

1) bass below circa 80Hz is non directional (in that we cannot identify where it is from)
2) bass on (many) vinyl/records was limited and often mixed mono.... - so lots of recordings don't actually have stereo bass

however in this day and age of stereo digital recordings, bass can and is recorded individually per channel... that doesn't mean that we can discern that seperation!

(and as a bonus, audibility thresholds do vary by individual... so directional bass could be over 80Hz for me, but over 100Hz for you, and over 60Hz for someone else!)

But keep in mind, that bass often goes well into the audibility range, as many subs go up to 150Hz or 200Hz... (and have tunable filters to adjust the top end limit)

 

[Hayabusa]

One moment - there is no "directional" bass in stereo? What do you mean with that?

Directional bass will be stereo bass via the L and R subs if setup correctly
so the the bass of the L main will go to the L sub etc..

 

[dlaloum]

Directional bass will be stereo bass via the L and R subs if setup correctly
so the the bass of the L main will go to the L sub etc..

But in most cases, if the frequencies involved are below 80Hz - we cannot distinguish the direction from which they come.... making it all a bit pointless?

 

[Hayabusa]

But in most cases, if the frequencies involved are below 80Hz - we cannot distinguish the direction from which they come.... making it all a bit pointless?

I crossover higher than 80Hz

 

[IamJF]

however in this day and age of stereo digital recordings, bass can and is recorded individually per channel... that doesn't mean that we can discern that seperation!

Does anyone know recordings where this is the case?
In mastering I would say that's a technical mistake to have frequencies <80Hz separated on one channel ... I never experienced the case that the woofers of one speaker are moving but not the others.