Marantz Cinema 30

[CCCC]

I have seen the 936's in Stereophile's review.

Focal Aria 936 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 4: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

I do know how similar the 948's would be. The specs of the two are similar, the 936's sensitivity is stated as 92 dB, also rated 8 ohm nominal that is obvious too optimistic based on the impedance curve.

Regardless, even if the Cinema 30 can drive the larger 948 happily, if you have the amp, then trying it without is just a matter of satisfying your curiosity, I assume....

Yes, I saw that chart also, thanks. As said, for curiosity I will try without the external amp, but I will keep it to be 100% safe, on both loudspeaker performance and AVR stress

 

[Whoareyou]

Denon 6700H was released in 2020 and listed for $2.2K if not mistaken, and street price was as low as $1.7k. Bought mine for around $2K. Without going into much details about various 6700H incarnations and DAC replacement, Denon 6800H is essentially similar with a bit better DSP and 2 more subs out. Listed for $3.5k and have no idea of the street price. Quite a bit of difference IMO - $2.5k would be a more justifiable number.

Fair enough, but that's what's great about today's AVR market. If you don't want the additional build quality, which Marantz discusses in one of their Audioholic videos, then you can still buy a lower cost, great measuring AVR, but with that lesser quality hardware. The Cinema 30 is simply not a copy of the Denon at higher cost.

But you also seem to be saying that the new flagship should be $1000 cheaper than the 3 year old model it replaced ?

There was some R&D for sure and Dirac implementation, but also reasonable to expect that D&M will get a share of Dirac revenue in some way to recoup that particular cost.You could buy Marantz AV 8500A for $3.5k, AV-10 is more like $6k. It is true that this is a completely new unit in all aspects and there was ton of R&D, including very significant improvements in measured performance. But almost double the price tag is also a bit much.

Did you really mean the 8500A (wasn't that model released like 15 years ago), or did you mean the model replaced by the Cinema 30 which would be the 8015?

And again, with the AV10, it comes down to that build quality. It has many components that from measurment standpoint probably won't be noticed by anyone listening or watching video. Even the video section is significantly beefed up compared to the "cheap" AVRs.

That gold plating engineering is part of what your $7000 buys with the AV10. Compared to any other audio equipment that Marantz considers competition, it's a bargain.

 

[peng]

Yes, I saw that chart also, thanks. As said, for curiosity I will try without the external amp, but I will keep it to be 100% safe, on both loudspeaker performance and AVR stress

I am impressed with what Marantz has done to improve heat dissipation.
Are you using external amp for all channels, if so, don't forget to set it to "preamplifier", ie. preamp mode, to disconnect all internal amps. Not that there is problem, but the cooler the unit run (up to a point..) the better it is in terms of longevity.

 

[CCCC]

I use external amp only for the L-R front channels and yes, I set it as "Pre-out only" in the marantz

 

[peng]

Did you really mean the 8500A (wasn't that model released like 15 years ago), or did you mean the model replaced by the Cinema 30 which would be the 8015?

I bet he meant the AV8805A.

 

[Oddball]

Sorry was comparing 8805A to AV-10. So AVP to AVP. Was a typo.

I really don't think that anything in the AVR AVP world is a bargain. Not that I can't afford it (and thankful for that beyond measure) but if inflation was as steep in other areas as in AVR AVP world, I think all of us would be in real big and bad trouble.

EDIT: There are pockets of real value as 3800H, but then really steep hill right after that for very few features more.

 

[peng]

Sorry was comparing 8805A to AV-10. So AVP to AVP. Was a typo.

I really don't think that anything in the AVR AVP world is a bargain. Not that I can't afford it (and thankful for that beyond measure) but if inflation was as steep in other areas as in AVR AVP world, I think all of us would be in real big and bad trouble.

EDIT: There are pockets of real value as 3800H, but then really steep hill right after that for very few features more.

Agreed, in fact, I think the best value AVP at the moment are the Masimo D+M AVRs, namely the AVR-X6800H and the Cinema 30. This pair have the latest Sabre ESS DAC IC, that has almost the same specs (on SINAD anyway) as the AK4490 used in the former flagship AVPs, I meant the AK4490 before the AKM factory fire. In terms of DSD capability it is actually better than the ES9018K2M used in the AV10, because the ES9017 is DSD native capable, though it is really a moot point for the current model year, because of how D+M implement their DSD capabilities.

 

[Oddball]

Always tend to agree with you and respect your view - so same in this instance. I will even switch to D class amps once my A/B class dies

I chose AV-10 at the time when AV-30 or 6800H were not available, and on the heels of owning 6700H that is running too hot for my taste even in pre-amp mode. Understand that AV-30 has addressed that to some extent, and likely 6800H as well. To the extent this is true, don't see a reason why people with need for 13.4 would want anything more than this, absent some really long cable runs that might be better suited to XLR, or some extreme need for longevity of the unit bought.

I continue to really like the AV-10 and really appreciate that I can forget that it exists in my system either sonically or functionally. The darn thing just works, sounds great and generates so little heat that it I have a feeling it will last me a long while. At some point where life gets less busy, will add top middles and FW's so can say that I am using the full potential of the AVP. One thing I already miss is that AV-10 does not have 6 sub outs. They should have done it to make a further distinction to the other models.

 

[peng]

Always tend to agree with you and respect your view - so same in this instance. I will even switch to D class amps once my A/B class dies

I chose AV-10 at the time when AV-30 or 6800H were not available, and on the heels of owning 6700H that is running too hot for my taste even in pre-amp mode. Understand that AV-30 has addressed that to some extent, and likely 6800H as well. To the extent this is true, don't see a reason why people with need for 13.4 would want anything more than this, absent some really long cable runs that might be better suited to XLR, or some extreme need for longevity of the unit bought.

I continue to really like the AV-10 and really appreciate that I can forget that it exists in my system either sonically or functionally. The darn thing just works, sounds great and generates so little heat that it I have a feeling it will last me a long while. At some point where life gets less busy, will add top middles and FW's so can say that I am using the full potential of the AVP. One thing I already miss is that AV-10 does not have 6 sub outs. They should have done it to make a further distinction to the other models.

The Cinema 30 and the AVR-X6800H may be the best value AVPs, but the AV10 you got is arguably the best available AVP at below $10,000. No other alternatives offer two competent RCs, 4 subouts, and 15 speaker channels.

 

[CCCC]

Agreed, in fact, I think the best value AVP at the moment are the Masimo D+M AVRs, namely the AVR-X6800H and the Cinema 30. This pair have the latest Sabre ESS DAC IC, that has almost the same specs (on SINAD anyway) as the AK4490 used in the former flagship AVPs, I meant the AK4490 before the AKM factory fire. In terms of DSD capability it is actually better than the ES9018K2M used in the AV10, because the ES9017 is DSD native capable, though it is really a moot point for the current model year, because of how D+M implement their DSD capabilities.

What does the DSD point mean? The DAC in the Cinema 30 is more capable than the one in the AV10?

 

[Whoareyou]

To the extent this is true, don't see a reason why people with need for 13.4 would want anything more than this, absent some really long cable runs that might be better suited to XLR, or some extreme need for longevity of the unit bought.

Agree 100% on this, especially the need for 13.4 channels being an important factor.

I continue to really like the AV-10 and really appreciate that I can forget that it exists in my system either sonically or functionally. The darn thing just works, sounds great and generates so little heat that it I have a feeling it will last me a long while. At some point where life gets less busy, will add top middles and FW's so can say that I am using the full potential of the AVP. One thing I already miss is that AV-10 does not have 6 sub outs. They should have done it to make a further distinction to the other models.

Based on the 30, I completely understand your appreciation for the 10.

Funny thing is the 30 is making me have a bit of buyer's remorse regarding some of my past DAC purchases.

I still need to evaluate the AVr's internal amps, and I'll probably still need external amp for my main L/R Revel 328s but, if I so choose, I now see a path to greatly simplyfying my setup.

 

[BearC30]

I am genuinely shocked at how much of a sonic improvement the C30 is over my old C50 and Rotel external amp combo. I don’t know if its the DAC’s or the amplifier section but my Focals are absolutely singing and the soundstage and resolution are almost like its a different speaker. This is also with a quick manual setup and no room correction applied. I don’t know if i am just hearing what my speakers can actually do with proper amplification or its a synergy thing as the Rotel had plenty of power but never drove my speakers like the C30.

Apologies i know this is all subjective and sounds overly gushy but I have never had this big an improvement from changing one component previously and so far its worth every bloody cent it cost me.

 

[CCCC]

Marantz is a good partner for Focal speakers. I have tried many amplifiers and receivers and Marantz is the best. More than the DAC (I had a marantz with totally different DAC) or amplification (I use an external amp) it is the sound tune they give to their devices, probably related to the HDAM modules. Focal speakers are on the bright side and the gentle roll-off of marantz on high frequencies helps a lot

 

[Oddball]

I am genuinely shocked at how much of a sonic improvement the C30 is over my old C50 and Rotel external amp combo. I don’t know if its the DAC’s or the amplifier section but my Focals are absolutely singing and the soundstage and resolution are almost like its a different speaker. This is also with a quick manual setup and no room correction applied. I don’t know if i am just hearing what my speakers can actually do with proper amplification or its a synergy thing as the Rotel had plenty of power but never drove my speakers like the C30.

Apologies i know this is all subjective and sounds overly gushy but I have never had this big an improvement from changing one component previously and so far its worth every bloody cent it cost me.

Not really sure what went wrong with C50 and Rotel amps, but it's great that you are experiencing the notable improvement. I can't say that performance of my pretty old Rotel RB 1070 is leaving anything to be missed, despite the lowish SINAD compared to my AVP.

 

[BearC30]

Dont get me wrong the C50 and the Rotel certainly wasn’t bad and it wasn’t anything to do with the quality of the Rotel or receiver per se, its just the C30 has just given me such a marked improvement, that it surprised me. It should perform better considering the price and its why i invested in the C30 but often in hifi the hype doesn’t genuinely match the outcome.

I actually think the C50 is the sweet spot in the Cinema line features to dollars wise. Its still an excellent unit.

 

[peng]

What does the DSD point mean? The DAC in the Cinema 30 is more capable than the one in the AV10?

Your first question is a tough one for me as I don't actually know what I meant, I did try reading up on DSD Native vs non native, and DSD DOP etc., and I got headache afterward. You can try Googling, or some other search on the internet but I guarantee you won't find too many easy to understand articles on the related topic.

All I can say is, the so called DSD capable DAC chips probably simply mean the ones that can accept a DSD signal directly so the AV device such as an AVR/AVP doesn't have to do any sort of manipulation before inputting it to the DAC IC. Based on ESS's datasheet, the non reference class (ESS Sabre's) ES9017 can do that, but the reference class ES9018 does not seem to have the capability.

From ESS datasheets:
ES9017
On the front page you can see that it mentions native DSD 512, that, by itself does not mean it is truly DSD native capable.

If you look at the datasheet for the ES9027Pro or the ES9038Pro (used in the AVM90), ES9038Q2M (used in the AVM70) the bigger brother, it is more explicitly that it has the input format for native DSD.

The ES9018 (used in the AV10) does not indicate it can accept native DSD directly, and then without any sort of conversion, decode it directly.

None of those things I mentioned above are explicit enough to me, though some resident DAC experts on ASR might hopefully chime in and educate us on this.

So I think I spoke too soon, the DAC IC in the Cinema 30 is only "more capable", in terms of having the capability of decoding DSD natively, but I could be wrong because the AV10's DAC IC, the ES9018 might have the same capability, just that it is not obvious, based on the data sheet:

Take a read yourself, and may be you can spot something that I missed:

The one for the ES9017 has 97 pages,

https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/ES9017_Datasheet_v0.3.pdf

https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/ES9018S-Datasheet-v2.3.pdf

Regardless, based on my limited understanding of the matter, once you get to the level of devices such as the Cinema 30, AV10, AVR-X6800H, these sort of things are mainly academic, I will not be able to tell any difference whether it is PCM, DSD native, DOP, what matters is the original recording's quality.

 

[EWL5]

Your first question is a tough one for me as I don't actually know what I meant, I did try reading up on DSD Native vs non native, and DSD DOP etc., and I got headache afterward. You can try Googling, or some other search on the internet but I guarantee you won't find too many easy to understand articles on the related topic.

All I can say is, the so called DSD capable DAC chips probably simply mean the ones that can accept a DSD signal directly so the AV device such as an AVR/AVP doesn't have to do any sort of manipulation before inputting it to the DAC IC. Based on ESS's datasheet, the non reference class (ESS Sabre's) ES9017 can do that, but the reference class ES9018 does not seem to have the capability.

From ESS datasheets:
ES9017
On the front page you can see that it mentions native DSD 512, that, by itself does not mean it is truly DSD native capable.

If you look at the datasheet for the ES9027Pro or the ES9038Pro (used in the AVM90), ES9038Q2M (used in the AVM70) the bigger brother, it is more explicitly that it has the input format for native DSD.

The ES9018 (used in the AV10) does not indicate it can accept native DSD directly, and then without any sort of conversion, decode it directly.

None of those things I mentioned above are explicit enough to me, though some resident DAC experts on ASR might hopefully chime in and educate us on this.

So I think I spoke too soon, the DAC IC in the Cinema 30 is only "more capable", in terms of having the capability of decoding DSD natively, but I could be wrong because the AV10's DAC IC, the ES9018 might have the same capability, just that it is not obvious, based on the data sheet:

Take a read yourself, and may be you can spot something that I missed:

The one for the ES9017 has 97 pages,

https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/ES9017_Datasheet_v0.3.pdf

https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/ES9018S-Datasheet-v2.3.pdf

Regardless, based on my limited understanding of the matter, once you get to the level of devices such as the Cinema 30, AV10, AVR-X6800H, these sort of things are mainly academic, I will not be able to tell any difference whether it is PCM, DSD native, DOP, what matters is the original recording's quality.

Whether a DAC can decode DSD natively or not is becoming a moot point. SACD and extracted DSD files are becoming as extinct as VHS tapes!

 

[scotchrocks]

I've been debating on getting either a C40 or C30 to replace my old SR7012, mostly to improve the SNR and try using Dirac. I just started running Buckeye external amps (NCx500 for LCR and NC502MP for surrounds/height), so I would probably only use the AVR in pre-amp mode.

I wonder if the extra pre-amp SINAD is worth the cost difference when I'm not even using the amps though. It doesn't seem like it would make an audible difference... but if I'm keeping this another 8+ years why not take the AVR out of the equation. I'm planning to move my SR7012 to a bedroom for stereo use, so maybe it'll be nice to have those more capable amps whenever the time comes to retire the C30.

Anyways, just thinking out loud and curious if others think the C40 to C30 gap is worth it for the pre-amp quality.

 

[CCCC]

I jumped from a 7013 to a C30 and I am very happy. I was expecting an slight improvement, but it has been much bigger than expected. But I cannot tell if a C40 would have also meant a big improvement

Now I am tempted to try DIRAC but if I spend 799$ and afterwards I realize that I like Audyssey more... I will feel really stupid. I had an arcam some years ago and I liked Dirac, with some reserves: the soundstage was narrowed and in Music it was too punchy and defined for my taste (I like some dispersion in music)

 

[peng]

Marantz is a good partner for Focal speakers. I have tried many amplifiers and receivers and Marantz is the best. More than the DAC (I had a marantz with totally different DAC) or amplification (I use an external amp) it is the sound tune they give to their devices, probably related to the HDAM modules. Focal speakers are on the bright side and the gentle roll-off of marantz on high frequencies helps a lot

That, in my opinion (just my opinion) is a myth, created by their marketing info, no scientific base if you look at their own published specs and bench test results, but I do appreciate that Marantz fans are firmly entrenched in their belief because they trust what they perceived and probably don't believe human bias/Placebo has much effect on them. Even if they read studies, such as Harman's that showed such bias are very effective/impactful. Not trying spoil your fun, and I highlighted "opinion", I would have love to own a Cinema 30, to me, it is the most impressive AVR even made as it has the best mix of features, quality parts, aesthetic, circuit board layout, physical dimensions and weight, as well as specs and measurements (based on Marantz's own, that I trust, based on their reputation and past history).

By the way, I just AB compared my new Denon vs my Marantz preamp/power amp in two channel, I actually thought the Denon had the "warm" sound, tried it in both Dirac and pure direct, same results. Not tightly controlled, totally sighted, though in this case, the sighted part should bias me to hear the warmer sound from the Marantz pair, very weird, lol... The human mind is really interesting, can be imaginative, and perception could be highly variable depending on many factor.