Tekton M-Lore Speaker Measurement Update

[DLS79]

I've gone back and read all 3 posts he/she has made to date, and all 3 of them look like your typical trolling account. If it was me i would have banned/locked the account already!

 

[tmtomh]

I've gone back and read all 3 posts he/she has made to date, and all 3 of them look like your typical trolling account. If it was me i would have banned/locked the account already!

He's jumped in to three different threads and posted small variations on this exact same manifesto. Personally I wouldn't ban the account just for that, but I'd guess he's certainly on his way if he persists like this without modification - though of course it's totally up to the mods as always (and as it should be!).

 

[thegeton]

This all seems like a battle of words.

Amir is really just stirring up a movement of quite un realistic values in the bottom end on consumer home entertainment.

Aside from the less than cordial interactions with Amir and Eric what in the end is the point being made in these or an un solicited measurement? I am not convinced there is a real point to any off it.

On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.

If the manufacturer leaves that open ended and the reviewer is also open ended in the approach to limit all this is nothing more than gas bagging. It’s on line waffle.

What is the reference at this price point?

The more intelligent approach rather than Amir made advoc personal statements is to quote the results in a form that make sense.

Ie the loudspeaker under test had a response +-3 db from 200 - 10,000 for example.

Then compare that response to similar loudspeaker in this price category.

At this price point this is a credible result.

If it was a $20,000 system you might expect a better result.

The subjective comments should not be made by Amir because he would be sight biased by the measurement or other biases. It should be a blind test not revealing the loudspeaker.

This of course would all be rather boring and there would be many posts. So a 60 Minutes style of provocative reporting to done to drive all you opinion leaders.


I do have one question for Amir

Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker? The answer is there isn’t unless you’re deeply invested in becoming an industry disrupter. The $100,000 is the attention grabber. But it’s really just a fancy machine with lots if automated functions. The primary application is testing drivers in R&D.

If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.

On a broader perspective do those with the means look at forums when buying a +$10,000 loudspeaker system. They might look at consumer product reviews. The primary tool used to judge the loudspeaker will be their own ears. The notion that HiFi dealers don’t exist is rubbish.

W.T.A.F. does all this word salad mean?

I think one of the younger but highly resourceful members of a random household found a parental laptop unlocked, entered some clever prompts into ChatGPT, and then posted the results here.

 

[BDWoody]

He's jumped in to three different threads and posted small variations on this exact same manifesto. Personally I wouldn't ban the account just for that, but I'd guess he's certainly on his way if he persists like this without modification - though of course it's totally up to the mods as always (and as it should be!).

He's gotten a little time out to ponder things.

 

[Timcognito]

He's gotten a little time out to ponder things.

Too bad he was getting flogged for not thinking about what he was saying.

 

[spandy]

reads as a slightly salty ESL (english as a second language) person, perhaps in the "high end" audio business.

 

[xray]

It's a shame many of you wasted your valuable time with thoughtful replies to what is likely a troll post meant to stir sh*t up.

 

[DLS79]

It's a shame many of you wasted your valuable time with thoughtful replies to what is likely a troll post meant to stir sh*t up.

A trolls worst enemy is intelligent people with free time to spare!

 

[MerlinGS]

I somehow ended up in another forum when this issue blew up. I tried having a conversation with one of the participants in that forum who argued Eric/Tekton had an opportunity to sue Amir due to various reasons. I am not going to regurgitate our whole conversation in that forum, and why (s)he was wrong, I am just going to address an issue I see surface a little too often and it sometimes concerns me because I would prefer if people were better informed.

Freedom of Speech, which in America is derived from the Constitution's First Amendment, relates to the government and its limitation in restricting people's speech. I.e. Freedom of speech does not apply to individuals as it relates to their speech and third parties/private institutions. E.g. this forum is free to restrict people's speech. Twitter and FB were and are free to restrict people's speech.

The question that one needs to consider as it relates to speech and legal exposure pertains to libel and defamation. If you defame someone, the government cannot arrest you (1st Amendment); however, the defamed party can sue you for damages.

Being able to sue a party because they were critical of your business does not mean you will be awarded damages. Several hurdles must be met before a jury awards damages. If Amir and/Erin's review leads to the demise of Tekton, that is not sufficient reason to award damages.

Ironically, the events that followed Amir and Erin's review of the Tekton speakers legally exposed Eric/Tekton. Although not relevant to the legal exposure, people's negative reaction to Eric/Tekton did not seem to be the result of Amir/Erin's findings, instead, the general negative reaction could be attributed to Eric/Tekton's response. It is this response that may have placed Eric/Tekton in legal jeopardy. Eric's public statements against Amir and Erin likely crossed the line of libel. Again, Eric is free to make those comments, but if he libels Amir/Erin, then he is legally exposed.

 

[tmtomh]

I somehow ended up in another forum when this issue blew up. I tried having a conversation with one of the participants in that forum who argued Eric/Tekton had an opportunity to sue Amir due to various reasons. I am not going to regurgitate our whole conversation in that forum, and why (s)he was wrong, I am just going to address an issue I see surface a little too often and it sometimes concerns me because I would prefer if people were better informed.

Freedom of Speech, which in America is derived from the Constitution's First Amendment, relates to the government and its limitation in restricting people's speech. I.e. Freedom of speech does not apply to individuals as it relates to their speech and third parties/private institutions. E.g. this forum is free to restrict people's speech. Twitter and FB were and are free to restrict people's speech.

The question that one needs to consider as it relates to speech and legal exposure pertains to libel and defamation. If you defame someone, the government cannot arrest you (1st Amendment); however, the defamed party can sue you for damages.

Being able to sue a party because they were critical of your business does not mean you will be awarded damages. Several hurdles must be met before a jury awards damages. If Amir and/Erin's review leads to the demise of Tekton, that is not sufficient reason to award damages.

Ironically, the events that followed Amir and Erin's review of the Tekton speakers legally exposed Eric/Tekton. Although not relevant to the legal exposure, people's negative reaction to Eric/Tekton did not seem to be the result of Amir/Erin's findings, instead, the general negative reaction could be attributed to Eric/Tekton's response. It is this response that may have placed Eric/Tekton in legal jeopardy. Eric's public statements against Amir and Erin likely crossed the line of libel. Again, Eric is free to make those comments, but if he libels Amir/Erin, then he is legally exposed.

Excellent post - thanks!

 

[dzerig]

Finally cancelled the order after being jacked around for 6 months.

I thought they had ready to ship items in stock?

 

[dzerig]

Freedom of Speech, which in America is derived from the Constitution's First Amendment, relates to the government and its limitation in restricting people's speech. I.e. Freedom of speech does not apply to individuals as it relates to their speech and third parties/private institutions. E.g. this forum is free to restrict people's speech. Twitter and FB were and are free to restrict people's speech.

The question that one needs to consider as it relates to speech and legal exposure pertains to libel and defamation. If you defame someone, the government cannot arrest you (1st Amendment); however, the defamed party can sue you for damages.

Being able to sue a party because they were critical of your business does not mean you will be awarded damages.

I don't recall Amir being critical of the business. He simply did not fall in love with the speaker.

Tekton has stated they are not interested in pursuing a lawsuit. They claim the threat of litigation just meant a friendly cup of coffee between attorneys.

I agree that Amir is publishing his opinion in the pages, and it would not be reasonable to hold him to the same standard as, say, an academic journal. Too bad that is not the legal standard.

Keep in mind that, in a legal setting, actual malice doesn't mean the defendant acted with the intention to do evil or cause harm to the plaintiff. Here actual malice means the defendant acted with reckless disregard for the truth.

Defendants may also claim that their public statement was a matter of pure opinion, which would exempt them from the action. But this would only work if a reasonable person would believe in good faith that the statement was meant as an opinion. If that fails, a defendant may seek to have the court recognize the plaintiff as a limited public figure. In this way, the higher actual malice standard kicks in. ....
https://www.findlaw.com/injury/tort...vs--false-light--what-is-the-difference-.html

The Elements of a False Light Claim​

In a false light claim, the plaintiff must prove the following elements:
https://www.findlaw.com/injury/tort...vs--false-light--what-is-the-difference-.html

• The defendant published some information about the plaintiff
• The information must portray the plaintiff in a false or misleading light
• The information is highly offensive or embarrassing to a reasonable person
• The defendant must have published the information with reckless disregard for its offensiveness

A false light claim is usually easier to bring than a defamation claim. This is because it involves allegations of false impressions (misleading impressions) rather than falsehoods (false statements).

 

[Erici]

This all seems like a battle of words.

Amir is really just stirring up a movement of quite un realistic values in the bottom end on consumer home entertainment.

Aside from the less than cordial interactions with Amir and Eric what in the end is the point being made in these or an un solicited measurement? I am not convinced there is a real point to any off it.

On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.

If the manufacturer leaves that open ended and the reviewer is also open ended in the approach to limit all this is nothing more than gas bagging. It’s on line waffle.

What is the reference at this price point?

The more intelligent approach rather than Amir made advoc personal statements is to quote the results in a form that make sense.

Ie the loudspeaker under test had a response +-3 db from 200 - 10,000 for example.

Then compare that response to similar loudspeaker in this price category.

At this price point this is a credible result.

If it was a $20,000 system you might expect a better result.

The subjective comments should not be made by Amir because he would be sight biased by the measurement or other biases. It should be a blind test not revealing the loudspeaker.

This of course would all be rather boring and there would be many posts. So a 60 Minutes style of provocative reporting to done to drive all you opinion leaders.


I do have one question for Amir

Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker? The answer is there isn’t unless you’re deeply invested in becoming an industry disrupter. The $100,000 is the attention grabber. But it’s really just a fancy machine with lots if automated functions. The primary application is testing drivers in R&D.

If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.

On a broader perspective do those with the means look at forums when buying a +$10,000 loudspeaker system. They might look at consumer product reviews. The primary tool used to judge the loudspeaker will be their own ears. The notion that HiFi dealers don’t exist is rubbish.

WOW. I think this post was created with ChatGPT.
The prompt was "Try to find anything to criticize Amir's review of the Tekton Lore speaker. Do not include any facts or logic".

 

[Ken1951]

WOW. I think this post was created with ChatGPT.
The prompt was "Try to find anything to criticize Amir's review of the Tekton Lore speaker. Do not include any facts or logic".

It is a remarkable assemblage of words. Truly non-sensical ramblings.

 

[amirm]

Freedom of Speech, which in America is derived from the Constitution's First Amendment, relates to the government and its limitation in restricting people's speech. I.e. Freedom of speech does not apply to individuals as it relates to their speech and third parties/private institutions. E.g. this forum is free to restrict people's speech. Twitter and FB were and are free to restrict people's speech.

While your concluding statement is true, the situation is a bit different here. Erin and I can be considered part of "press" and hence, enjoy the precedence set by Supreme Court on freedoms we enjoy as a result of that. From the Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_the_United_States

"Obsidian Finance Group, LLC v. Cox
Main article: Obsidian Finance Group, LLC v. Cox
On 2014, blogger Crystal Cox accused Obsidian and Kevin D. Padrick of corrupt and fraudulent conduct. Although the court dismissed most of Cox's blog posts as opinion, it found one post to be more factual in its assertions (and, therefore, defamatory).

It was ruled for the first time,[26][27] by the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit,[28] that a blogger is entitled to the same free speech protection as a journalist and cannot be liable for defamation unless the blogger acted negligently.[29] In the decision, journalists and bloggers are equally protected under the First Amendment[26] because the "protections of the First Amendment do not turn on whether the defendant was a trained journalist, formally affiliated with traditional news entities, engaged in conflict-of-interest disclosure, went beyond just assembling others' writings, or tried to get both sides of a story."[28]: 11–12 [30]"

Combine this with the Consumer Review Fairness Act and I think one can rely on the courts starting with the default position that reviewers have good bit of freedom when it comes to reviewing products.

 

[voodooless]

Tekton has stated they are not interested in pursuing a lawsuit. They claim the threat of litigation just meant a friendly cup of coffee between attorneys.

Yet privately to @amirm, it was made very clear that the intention was a lot more than just a friendly cup of coffee. The public statements were just made to try to take control of the narrative and downplay the situation. In fact, the man appears to have a history of threatening people with lawsuits.

 

[bodhi]

IME you might be overestimating how "serious" most speaker brands are...

I think every manufacturer *should* have one, but you can get by without good anechoic measurements, especially if you're making small bluetooth speakers or something.

It wouldn't hurt to have one in that category, but for the most part, you have very hard design constraints that a klippel might not help you with. And, in the end, most of your customers are shopping more on price than sound anyway. Better off hiring a cost engineer and sourcing manager for the money than buying a klippel, in that case...

Of course one can run a business however they like. It's just that 100k is really not that big of an investment in the gradient scheme of things. For example, can you get an engineer or a manager for even one year for that?

 

[antcollinet]

This all seems like a battle of words.

Amir is really just stirring up a movement of quite un realistic values in the bottom end on consumer home entertainment.

Aside from the less than cordial interactions with Amir and Eric what in the end is the point being made in these or an un solicited measurement? I am not convinced there is a real point to any off it.

On reflection it’s a good idea as a manufacturer to state the frequency response and the limits ie 50-20,000 hertz +- 5 db @ One meter for example. Any post purchase measurements only need to verify that under those conditions.

If the manufacturer leaves that open ended and the reviewer is also open ended in the approach to limit all this is nothing more than gas bagging. It’s on line waffle.

What is the reference at this price point?

The more intelligent approach rather than Amir made advoc personal statements is to quote the results in a form that make sense.

Ie the loudspeaker under test had a response +-3 db from 200 - 10,000 for example.

Then compare that response to similar loudspeaker in this price category.

At this price point this is a credible result.

If it was a $20,000 system you might expect a better result.

The subjective comments should not be made by Amir because he would be sight biased by the measurement or other biases. It should be a blind test not revealing the loudspeaker.

This of course would all be rather boring and there would be many posts. So a 60 Minutes style of provocative reporting to done to drive all you opinion leaders.


I do have one question for Amir

Where is the sense in spending $100,000 in a Klippel Scanner to measure a $1,000 loudspeaker? The answer is there isn’t unless you’re deeply invested in becoming an industry disrupter. The $100,000 is the attention grabber. But it’s really just a fancy machine with lots if automated functions. The primary application is testing drivers in R&D.

If Amir measured the drivers X max and BL curve it would give more real clues to how a system behaves under real operating conditions. A very much doubt Amir knows what a BL curve is.

On a broader perspective do those with the means look at forums when buying a +$10,000 loudspeaker system. They might look at consumer product reviews. The primary tool used to judge the loudspeaker will be their own ears. The notion that HiFi dealers don’t exist is rubbish.

I love how you have joined ASR seemingly just to instruct @amirm on how to run his site.

Way To Go.

 

[holdingpants01]

I love how you have joined ASR seemingly just to instruct @amirm on how to run his site.

Way To Go.

It's Eric quite obviously, he used fake accounts on youtube before to comment under the Erins review, easy to spot his "style"

 

[Kishore]

I hope Eric does not get away with this and amazed there are minions who defend BS. So what next now for Amir- he has been using facts to debunk some myths (and Erin too). Amir has been on receiving end for a while even before Eric saga- no one needs to agree 100% but hope this data driven approach provides more respectable platform