Topping A70 Pro HP & Preamp Review

[ribonucleic]

So for an A70 Pro/D70 Pro stack, would Blue Jeans Cable do a custom order for 6 inch XLR interconnects?

Worlds Best Cable sells these Canare L-4E6S jobs but I'd prefer the lower capacitance of the Belden 1800F.

 

[enricoclaudio]

So for an A70 Pro/D70 Pro stack, would Blue Jeans Cable do a custom order for 6 inch XLR interconnects?

Worlds Best Cable sells these Canare L-4E6S jobs but I'd prefer the lower capacitance of the Belden 1800F.

View attachment 285539

Get the WBC Mogami 2549 version then:

Amazon.com

 

[geekosa]

In fact, why choose A70 over A90 or the other way around ?

 

[nagster]

Why meaningless ?

It's not because you listen with top notch contemporary components that you don't want to listen sometimes to your old vintage analog sources and drag the best performance from them. An output impedance of 20 K is fine for the large majority of these souces but not for all, it can be a little too low (not a big effet but some light attenuation in the treble that can be perceived by young ears -not me at my age I admit, but I don't speak for myself).

Why do you think 47 k was the standard input impedance in the vintage audio times ? And why do you think other excellent makers like RME and Benchmark use high input impedance yet (47 k for Benchmark and 40 for RME) ?

Frankly, it won't cost nothing for Topping to increase a bit the input impedance of their devices, and it will be 100 % fine with all analog components,, and not only 90 % of them.

It's my only minor regret with this new A70 Pro, a stunning looking and performing component. Hope they're won't be any bugs or reliability issues, but very attracted by this model.

Any XLR output device that does not work properly with a 600ohm load is defective. There doesn't seem to be a clear standard for RCA output, but if it doesn't work properly with a 10-20kohm load, it's defective.
I would like to see resources allocated to improving performance and reliability rather than rescuing defective products.
However, even if it is "vintage analog components", if it has low noise and distortion close to A70pro, I think it makes sense. Such components will probably also have adequate load-driving capabilities.

At least for me, there is no reason to buy TOPPING products anymore if the improvement in noise and distortion performance stagnate and drop to B-class measurement performance even if Zin is 47kohm. If you stagnate, you will be left behind.

The sound source is irreplaceable. Especially when it's out of print. Whether it's SP, LP or tape. I think it's valuable to pick up as much information as possible from them.
I don't think TOPPING will develop a tape deck, but phono amps and MC head amps are interesting.

According to RME's site, Zin was as follows.
ADI2/4 Pro SE: unbal 45 kohm, bal 90 kohm
UCX II: unbal 8 kohm, bal 12 kohm
ADI2Pro FS R BE: unbal 9 kohm, bal 18 kohm

> Frankly, it won't cost nothing for Topping to increase a bit the input impedance of their devices
If there were no trade-offs, TOPPING would have done so from the beginning. They made some choice according to their own policy.
It didn't fit your policy.

 

[ribonucleic]

When Apple stopped putting floppy drives in its computers, it was criticized for abandoning the significant number of customers who were still using them. The move accelerated the final transition to hard drives. And while there are a few people with old floppy discs whose contents they’d like to access, the market has rightly decided to leave them to their own devices (so to speak). It’s not wasting precious resources on propping up an inferior and obsolete format.

[Not an Apple fanboi, btw, I switched to PCs 20 years ago and never looked back. But the historical record is what it is.]

We’re not in the exact same situation here. There weren’t wealthy computer users with unshakable convictions that floppy discs better convey what the data-creator intended. But every dollar/euro/renminbi spent on phono input is one that I’d rather see spent on (in descending order of preference) tighter quality control, better industrial design, or even more thorough documentation.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

@amirm can we ask for thd+n vs frequency response graph?

 

[Tovarich007]

Any XLR output device that does not work properly with a 600ohm load is defective. There doesn't seem to be a clear standard for RCA output, but if it doesn't work properly with a 10-20kohm load, it's defective.
I would like to see resources allocated to improving performance and reliability rather than rescuing defective products.
However, even if it is "vintage analog components", if it has low noise and distortion close to A70pro, I think it makes sense. Such components will probably also have adequate load-driving capabilities.

At least for me, there is no reason to buy TOPPING products anymore if the improvement in noise and distortion performance stagnate and drop to B-class measurement performance even if Zin is 47kohm. If you stagnate, you will be left behind.

The sound source is irreplaceable. Especially when it's out of print. Whether it's SP, LP or tape. I think it's valuable to pick up as much information as possible from them.
I don't think TOPPING will develop a tape deck, but phono amps and MC head amps are interesting.

According to RME's site, Zin was as follows.
ADI2/4 Pro SE: unbal 45 kohm, bal 90 kohm
UCX II: unbal 8 kohm, bal 12 kohm
ADI2Pro FS R BE: unbal 9 kohm, bal 18 kohm

> Frankly, it won't cost nothing for Topping to increase a bit the input impedance of their devices
If there were no trade-offs, TOPPING would have done so from the beginning. They made some choice according to their own policy.
It didn't fit your policy.

Which tradoff ? A very few THD and SNR less ? No audible effect at all. I'm not chasing the absolute best measured performance, it's vain and useless.
The Benchmark or RME with high Zin work perfectly fine, as fine s the Toppings (of course, prices are higher, they're made by small or middle size -for RME- europeean or american companies).

I think you would be surprised if you could perceive any difference in a blind test at equalized level between the combo D70 Pro Sabre/A70 Pro and the RME ADI2/4 Pro SE.
My guess is there is none.

So all considered, it's better go for higher Zin. At least, there would be no tradeoff with any source component (even if I admit a 20 K Zin is enough for more than 90 % of all sources, including most vintage ones. But, as I wrote, sometimes people like to listen to suboptimal old sources without changing the preamp nor these sources.

It's not my policy, that's facts.
By the way, Zin of Topping prducts are now higher than they used to be at the start of this brand, maybe there are good reasons for this.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

The real question in my mind is which would be a better choice: The A70 or the A90D? Who is each one for? Is it worth the extra $100 to get the A90D, or is the A70 so close as to render any measured differences moot?

Edit: I just took the time to do a comparison of the two reviews of the respective products and it terms of measured numbers, it appears to me the A70 is just a little bit better in every respect, including, most significantly, output power into any load. And this is for $100 less than the A90. $500 is a lot to spend, but if you use a lot of DSP on your headphone, it's easy to use up headroom fast before digital clipping sets in. Something like an A70 presents a perfect opportunity to add that headroom back at the end of the signal path with little worries about clipping, either analog or digital. Would make a Jim Dandy preamp for a two channel speaker based system. I have a new item to add to my wish list.

 

[Blashyrkh]

I rate China in the same value as Japanese & Taiwan products now with Korean stuff & manufacture.
There is proper parity in tech & production. Quality is there if you know what you are buying.

American products if manufactured there are a step down in quality.
As they are are most likely not even produced there or cut down so much because of overhead. I don't rate American goods close to the Asian or European manufacturing.

So "chi-fi" is better than American.
I would just use the country name proper though for country of origin rather than a short them as "chi-fi" though.

There are "industrial" stuff from USA but consumer products just aren't on par with manufacturing elsewhere. You pay more for a inferior product.

I'm not so certain about the quality of Chinese goods. I bought 20 Chinese made underwear and they are falling apart after several months. Topping has had a pretty bad record for QC and service here. Some stuff seems OK. Like PC gear, notebooks etc.

Probably you should stop at once.

I’m quoting myself here because this is the last time we are going to talk about this. We asked nicely and told you our reasoning why. Then a whole bunch of people started debating this. It’s not up for debate anymore. Follow our guidelines or find the door. I deleted every post that mentioned this term or quoted the term. No Warnings were issued. That changes as of this post. Any further discussion about this term or off topic posts will result in a Warning and a Thread Ban.

Thank you for your understanding and support.

 

[Veri]

The real question in my mind is which would be a better choice: The A70 or the A90D? Who is each one for? Is it worth the extra $100 to get the A90D, or is the A70 so close as to render any measured differences moot?

Edit: I just took the time to do a comparison of the two reviews of the respective products and it terms of measured numbers, it appears to me the A70 is just a little bit better in every respect, including, most significantly, output power into any load. And this is for $100 less than the A90. $500 is a lot to spend, but if you use a lot of DSP on your headphone, it's easy to use up headroom fast before digital clipping sets in. Something like an A70 presents a perfect opportunity to add that headroom back at the end of the signal path with little worries about clipping, either analog or digital. Would make a Jim Dandy preamp for a two channel speaker based system. I have a new item to add to my wish list.

I really wonder about this, too. A70 Pro also has Pre90 compatibility.. is a Pre70 coming? Are more -90 devices coming? Is a D100/A100 or DA100 combo coming??

I'm glad I don't need an upgrade any moment soon cause I sure as hell don't know what I would want to buy..

 

[enricoclaudio]

I really wonder about this, too. A70 Pro also has Pre90 compatibility.. is a Pre70 coming? Are more -90 devices coming? Is a D100/A100 or DA100 combo coming??

I'm glad I don't need an upgrade any moment soon cause I sure as hell don't know what I would want to buy..

As a pre amp, the A70Pro looks easier to navigate thanks to the new touchscreen display. Paired with the Ext90, it's a much better option than the A90/A90D. I tried the A90D as a pre amp and it was very unfriendly to navigate and changing inputs was not an easy task due the lack of a proper screen. I bet the new 90 Series will come with an updated screen similar or better than the A70Pro screen which would make it a great pre amp. Performance wise, I don't see how much Topping could improve over the already stelar A70Pro, though.

 

[Human Bass]

So for an A70 Pro/D70 Pro stack, would Blue Jeans Cable do a custom order for 6 inch XLR interconnects?

Worlds Best Cable sells these Canare L-4E6S jobs but I'd prefer the lower capacitance of the Belden 1800F.

View attachment 285539

Capacitance doesnt matter in such ultra short cables.

 

[BrooklynNick]

In 2023 not a lot of people connect their headphone to a 12 feet cable to sit at the couch. There is Bluetooth for that.

Among the target audience for the A70 or A90, this is very much not true. Why would anyone who uses Bluetooth headphones buy either of these devices? Most would use the Bluetooth output of their phones (or tablet, TV, streaming device, etc).

If you look at Head-Fi (over 400,000 members), the majority of people are not using Bluetooth for over-ear headphones and there is good reason for that. Many of the best over-ear headphones are already heavy and can be hard to drive. Adding amps and batteries would make the situation worse. Additionally, adding Bluetooth means that your headphones will cost more, have electronics that can fail, and will eventually need to have a battery replaced. Note that that battery is generally not user accessible. Getting ready to settle in for an evening of music listening only to discover that your headphones need to be recharged is no fun.

Lastly, no one, such as ASR, is testing the DACs or amps in wireless headphones (AFAIK). So, you really don't know what compromises are being made.

 

[PeteL]

Among the target audience for the A70 or A90, this is very much not true. Why would anyone who uses Bluetooth headphones buy either of these devices? Most would use the Bluetooth output of their phones (or tablet, TV, streaming device, etc).

If you look at Head-Fi (over 400,000 members), the majority of people are not using Bluetooth for over-ear headphones and there is good reason for that. Many of the best over-ear headphones are already heavy and can be hard to drive. Adding amps and batteries would make the situation worse. Additionally, adding Bluetooth means that your headphones will cost more, have electronics that can fail, and will eventually need to have a battery replaced. Note that that battery is generally not user accessible. Getting ready to settle in for an evening of music listening only to discover that your headphones need to be recharged is no fun.

Lastly, no one, such as ASR, is testing the DACs or amps in wireless headphones (AFAIK). So, you really don't know what compromises are being made.

I think you do not get my point, Bluetooth is not what it was about. I never said they would be using Bluetooth with these device.
My point was.
- People where asking for more INPUTS. To me Headphone amps are mainly a desktop product these days due to the cable length limitation you don't normally put this in your equipment rack where you have your turntable, CD Player, Tuner, etc. It defeat the purpose of an headphone amp. You don't have all this equipment on your desk, you just normally plug a DAC in it
-Bluetooth is a side track. What I was saying is that INSTEAD of connecting a long cable that go from your Equipment Rack to your couch in typical living room setup with speakers, They would likely use Bluetooth headphones or they would use sensitive earphones connected to a light weight portable device.
Personally in my living room I listen to speakers, If I do need to listen late at night Whether TV or Music, I use Bluetooth headphones. If I am at my desk, I use an headphone amp but will never need more than one input for my DAC, 2 is bonus.

 

[BrooklynNick]

People where asking for more INPUTS. To me Headphone amps are mainly a desktop product these days due to the cable length limitation you don't normally put this in your equipment rack where you have your turntable, CD Player, Tuner, etc. It defeat the purpose of an headphone amp. You don't have all this equipment on your desk, you just normally plug a DAC in it

I basically agree that more people don't need a lot of inputs; especially if they are also using a seperate DAC. However, I don't see how it "defeats the purpose" of headphone amp. The point of a device like this is to meet the needs of as many potential users as possible at a price point. People are asking for more inputs because they personally need more inputs. Different people have different use cases. You may listen to speakers exclusively in your living room, but does that mean we all have to?

BTW, many people use the headphone outputs on their integrated amps. Others are using full size equipment that does not easily fit on a desk. Or, they use the same DAC for their stereo and their headphones. There is a thread on Head-Fi called "Pictures Of Your High End System II." It is eye opening (to be polite) how much a very large group of people are spending on equipment like amps and DACs, but it also illustrates the wide variety of setups.

 

[PeteL]

I basically agree that more people don't need a lot of inputs; especially if they are also using a seperate DAC. However, I don't see how it "defeats the purpose" of headphone amp. The point of a device like this is to meet the needs of as many potential users as possible at a price point. People are asking for more inputs because they personally need more inputs. Different people have different use cases. You may listen to speakers exclusively in your living room, but does that mean we all have to?

BTW, many people use the headphone outputs on their integrated amps. Others are using full size equipment that does not easily fit on a desk. Or, they use the same DAC for their stereo and their headphones. There is a thread on Head-Fi called "Pictures Of Your High End System II." It is eye opening (to be polite) how much a very large group of people are spending on equipment like amps and DACs, but it also illustrates the wide variety of setups.

I agree with that, there’s the EXT90 or other preamps for them. But it comes full circle. bottom line. What proportion of wired Headphones that you know ship with 10 ft+ cables? Don’t you feel that if the demand was strong, manufacturers would include them? In the end yes we can always say generalities like “Everybody’s different” But for a manufacturers, It’s the number that matter. If Iput X $ for input switching and have to raise the price by Y, Is the revenue will be less, or will it be more?

 

[enricoclaudio]

There are cases/customers who need more than 1 input in their multifunction headphone amp / pre amp. I'm one of those cases. In my case, I'm running a Benchmark HPA4 which serves as pre amp primarily and headphone amp secondarily. For most HPA4 owners, their primary use is as headphone amp. When I was looking for a good monitor controller and pre amp for my desk, the Benchmark LA4 came at the top but then I thought, what if I replace my Topping A90D with the HPA4 which will replace two boxes for one? Well that's what I did and now I have the HPA4 working as a pre amp and headphone amp replacing two boxes for one. I'm using both XLR inputs, one coming from my MA X-SABRE 3 and the other from my RME Fireface UCX II and still I have two unbalanced inputs available. So my point is, there is a market for headphone amps that can be used as pre amps. Topping concept is definitely a good one. If you need the headphone amp only, then get the A70Pro. If you need a pre amp and headphone amp, then get the A70Pro + Ext90.

 

[shuppatsu]

I was looking for a good monitor controller and pre amp for my desk, the Benchmark LA4 came at the top but then I thought, what if I replace my Topping A90D with the HPA4 which will replace two boxes for one? Well that's what I did and now I have the HPA4 working as a pre amp and headphone amp replacing two boxes for one. I'm using both XLR inputs, one coming from my MA X-SABRE 3 and the other from my RME Fireface UCX II and still I have two unbalanced inputs available.

Don’t the A70 and A90D both have two inputs? Surely balanced inputs are not needed for the incredibly short runs used at a desk? Particularly when SINAD is already pegged at around 120dB?

 

[enricoclaudio]

Don’t the A70 and A90D both have two inputs? Surely balanced inputs are not needed for the incredibly short runs used at a desk? Particularly when SINAD is already pegged at around 120dB?

When I check my mixes, I do check them with headphones and monitors. The A90D and A70Pro don’t have both outputs active, you have to switch between headphone amp or pre amp. The HPA4 have both outputs active all the time with separate volume control and mute. I think the HPA4 is currently the only headphone amp / pre amp with this capability. Sometimes I have friends and customers coming to check their mixes so I use the unbalanced inputs in the HPA4 to plug in their equipment.

 

[ribonucleic]

Surely balanced inputs are not needed for the incredibly short runs used at a desk?

It’s the principle of the thing.