I'm of opinion that MM vs MC debate really doesn't matter when the highest end cartridges typically have ~1% THD, stereo separation is ~25dB and frequency response is usually +/- 3dB on the extremes... if your RIAA EQ is spot on you are probably already getting most out of vinyl.
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Schiit Skoll Balanced Phono Stage Review
- Thread starter amirm
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computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
Even a minor deviation of the ideal RIAA curve is not as critical as some think. How do I know that? I once had a phono preamplifier where I could vary the equalisation continuously and I had to turn the knobs hard to hear deviations from the RIAA curve in terms of better/worse. After owning countless cartridges of different types in my life, I now only use high-quality MM to keep my signal path simple. For MC, I used to use step-up transformers rather than high-sensitivity preamps.
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
Pretty much. I'd say well designed phono stages exceeded the maximum potential of the vinyl medium in the late 1970s.
Just like D/A converters of even the last 20 years have exceeded the potential of the music we are actually playing through them.
Sure, test signals can probe the edges and the spec wars can rage on, albeit quietly and with nobody really caring except us.
Cartridges are balanced as an inevitable result of their design and the output very low so it has always made sense for any phono system from cartridge to amp to be balanced.
Unfortunately domestic hifi didn't have balanced connections back in the day so pretty well all phono systems are single ended.
Yet another area where tradition compromised potential performance.
Having written that one can get acceptable performance from single ended systems properly earthed.
The problem with this one is that the, essential for accurate output, high pass filter is completely wrong so IMO this is a useless piece of kit...
Unfortunately domestic hifi didn't have balanced connections back in the day so pretty well all phono systems are single ended.
Yet another area where tradition compromised potential performance.
Having written that one can get acceptable performance from single ended systems properly earthed.
The problem with this one is that the, essential for accurate output, high pass filter is completely wrong so IMO this is a useless piece of kit...
computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
Not really, imo. There is not bottleneck.
True!
Also true.
computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
There is an additional effort and it is not even expensive to make with today's technology - but it is still quite pointless. And that's why I don't think it's good. In my opinion, something that is oversized is not properly sized in the sense of good/adequate engineering.
ocinn
Senior Member
That high pass filter is ridiculous…. What were they thinking? Not only too shallow of a filter but far too high of a freq.
Kudos for the balanced I/O. Shame most people in the market for this will not attempt the DIY task which is re-wiring their turntables for a true balanced output.
Before this the cheapest option with balanced inputs was the ProJect S3B at $500
Kudos for the balanced I/O. Shame most people in the market for this will not attempt the DIY task which is re-wiring their turntables for a true balanced output.
Balanced output is honestly pretty irrelevant for phono use. Balanced inputs are much, much more of a technical advantage
Before this the cheapest option with balanced inputs was the ProJect S3B at $500
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computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
ocinn
Senior Member
haha, well thanks for reminding me I ought to add my DJ setup to my gear list.Did you do it? I see no turntable in your gear list.
I have 3x SL1200 mk5s, Ortofon Concorde Elite (in between 2M Bronze and Black in terms of performance) single ended into my Xone96 mixer of course.
When I became enlightened to how awful vinyl is, and sold off my “audiophile” phono setup (Thorens TD145, Denon DL103) in 2018 or so, I don’t think balanced phono stages were available outside of $$$$ boutique products.
I still DJ vinyl because mixing digital is extremely boring to me, however, I will never spend a penny on a “listening” record ever again.
There is a DJ technique where you can play the same song staggered by beat(s) or half a bar, etc, and swap between them quickly to repeat sections and create unique grooves etc. I’ve attempted many times to do this by using a digital and a vinyl copy of the same song and the fidelity difference between the two is downright shocking. On every single record I’ve tried. Like 128kbps YouTube rip vs CD 16/44.1 drastic. And I have the best cartridges and mixer for my use-case, ever made, on the market.
Baffling how people somehow still believe vinyl is a transparent format in 2023.
computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
Now I'm glad I asked.
Interesting - I hadn't realised there was an Ortofon Concorde MKII Elite. It looks good. I recently had the Concorde Nightclub 2 and the Pro-Ject Pick it S2 C from these types of DJ bananas.
Preferably I take high end AT systems with Shibata Stylus and the like. I design my own phono preamps with tubes, but I also buy quite expensive commercial phono preamps from time to time to compare them sonically with. A preamp with a balanced input would make no sense to me.
But of course it's understandable for marketing reasons that Schiit builds them. I have the impression they are fighting hard for some kind of USP.
Who is that?
People like vinyl. They like the ritual, the jacket art, and I think they like the limited playback time too because they take a little rest from listening every 20 minutes or so to change the album or flip it over.
At one time an LP offered the best fidelity attainable for home listening unless you had access to early generation copies of studio open-reel tapes, of had an FM station in your area that broadcast live music (usually classical) with minimal signal processing and good mic setup etc. WFMT here in Chicago was famous for their excellent live sound productions. They still broadcast fine live performances but these days there are more transparent delivery channels for music than FM.
Lots of older people grew up listening to vinyl and to them that characteristic distortion and crackly noise floor means "music" to them. They're imprinted on that experience. They prefer the sound of vinyl.
Certain audio critics are making a living running around saying vinyl is superior, which I think displays their arrogance.
There are also people who use turntables as musical instruments- from basic DJ use to really proficient turntablists creating scratch music. But this is a whole different thing, not really the same as home listening.
I have a decent LP setup - I sent Amir my phono preamp and he tested it =>https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...sound-zphono-phono-preamplifier-review.15853/ I listen to AT LEAST one album a year.
At one time an LP offered the best fidelity attainable for home listening unless you had access to early generation copies of studio open-reel tapes, of had an FM station in your area that broadcast live music (usually classical) with minimal signal processing and good mic setup etc. WFMT here in Chicago was famous for their excellent live sound productions. They still broadcast fine live performances but these days there are more transparent delivery channels for music than FM.
Lots of older people grew up listening to vinyl and to them that characteristic distortion and crackly noise floor means "music" to them. They're imprinted on that experience. They prefer the sound of vinyl.
Certain audio critics are making a living running around saying vinyl is superior, which I think displays their arrogance.
There are also people who use turntables as musical instruments- from basic DJ use to really proficient turntablists creating scratch music. But this is a whole different thing, not really the same as home listening.
I have a decent LP setup - I sent Amir my phono preamp and he tested it =>https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...sound-zphono-phono-preamplifier-review.15853/ I listen to AT LEAST one album a year.
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JeremyFife
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Nice phono preamp: looks good, measures well enough. Balanced design and the remote options is pretty cool. Shame about the filter implementation perhaps.
An unavoidable side effect of following ASR is seeing these measurements in the context of vinyl playback: it's good enough, but so are many alternatives.
Still love vinyl (hands-on feel, nostalgia, sometimes for a better master) but can't get excited about kit like this any more.
An unavoidable side effect of following ASR is seeing these measurements in the context of vinyl playback: it's good enough, but so are many alternatives.
Still love vinyl (hands-on feel, nostalgia, sometimes for a better master) but can't get excited about kit like this any more.
computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
I feel the same way, I won't be adding anything new to my current setup with turntable, tube amps and horn speakers. That's finally finished. Practically, I've been listening digitally most of the time for decades anyway.
Kudos to Schiit for sending products to Amir to review without any assurance of a positive review (most of Amir’s reviews aren’t!). I wish more manufacturers did this, but instead they mostly just send to reviewers that pretty much only post positive reviews.
Your speakers have more THD, a good cartridge have more than 25dB stereo separation and +/-3dB in the extremes are normally inaudible for anyone with 30+ years old (and that threshold is worst with every generation). Do I need to talk about acoustic "distortions" in the room?
Add to that the ultra compressed digital recordings of today ... and let me say ... I really enjoy listening to vinyl. But, obviously I respect every opinion, I only wanted to write mine
We know scientifically that hifi audio is full of b****** ... I think when we only use the theory about it, we also add some.
Multicore
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My TT has a cable dangling out the back terminated by two RCA connectors and a ground spade connector. Does it make sense to cut those connectors off and rewire to XLR? If so, what goes where? There are 5 conductors total in the cable and 8 in the two XLR plugs.
No.
First you'd have to find out if the cartridge is wired with L/R independently to the RCA (No grounding of the signal anywhere in the turntable or tonearm, and no connection between the shields of the RCA cable.
You might have to rewire the turntable to obtain a balanced connection.
Multicore
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Thanks. That's just what I thought likely. On the one hand the idea of balanced connection between cart and preamp is appealing since it has worked so well all these years for microphones including ones with very low output. On the other, it's about circuits, not connectors, and might require the rewiring you suggest.
Multicore
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Excellent. Thanks GPJ. Makes sense.https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/download/file.php?id=87561&mode=view
from this forum thread
How to wire DIY balanced Linn tonearm cable?- Vinyl Engine
www.vinylengine.com
And I guess you connect that ground wire to the screw terminal on the preamp if doing so reduces hum noise, otherwise not.
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