Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC

[έχω δίκιο]

I’d agree this is more an O2 issue. I think we can add another deficiency to the design here.

The O2 seems to be a very solid design to me (I have owned one for several years), but you apparently have a list of deficiencies, to which you have added this one. Could you share that list here?

 

[Hemicrusher]

Thank you for the information! This has led me to do some more testing.
So indeed it is caused by current coming into the RCA outputs, not the USB (my bad! I'll edit my previous post to reflect this).

I tried 3 cases with video:

Case 1: I turn off the receiver (off-screen) with the D10 output connected to the receiver. It clicks.
https://streamable.com/yj6hr
Case 2: I turn off the receiver (off-screen) with the D10 output connected to a turned off O2. It clicks. Notice how I don't even touch the O2.
https://streamable.com/18hc1
Case 3: I turn off the receiver (off-screen) with the D10 output not connected. Nothing happens.
https://streamable.com/xi92f

Case 1 is most possibly caused by current coming from the receiver, but Case 2 is funky because I guess the current from the receiver is getting into the O2 and coming into the D10 output, making the relay click.

I don't know if it could damage the D10 (it doesn't lock up, it's just the relay and screen that lights up) but for now I'm disconnecting the RCA before turning off anything just in case.

I can't remember where I read this, but a DAC was doing something like that and the person got a reply from the company that said it was normal. It was a mute relay when the DAC sensed it was getting a signal change.

Mine clicks the same way. I have USB power set to off in the BIOS when the computer is off. When I boot my PC, the D10 clicks a couple times. When it gets power and when it gets told by Windows what the sample rate is set at. My screen also acts like yours does when it clicks.

 

[douteiful]

I can't remember where I read this, but a DAC was doing something like that and the person got a reply from the company that said it was normal. It was a mute relay when the DAC sensed it was getting a signal change.

Mine clicks the same way. I have USB power set to off in the BIOS when the computer is off. When I boot my PC, the D10 clicks a couple times. When it gets power and when it gets told by Windows what the sample rate is set at. My screen also acts like yours does when it clicks.

Yes, mine does the same when it is initializing. But in this case it seems to be due to current going into the RCA output, which I assume it's not designed for. The fact that sometimes it does lock up (although rarely) makes me feel this might be not by design. Either I might have ground issues, or the receiver is having issues (it's very old). That combined with the O2 letting current from the (I assume) AC input out of the line input. What a weird thing!

 

[Toku]

Update on my issue with the D10 malfunctioning when turning off amp:

As I mentioned previously the D10 sometimes malfunctions (relay clicks, sometimes crashes) when I turn off my headphone amp or speaker receiver. At first I thought there was current going back into the RCA output from the receiver but it seems that even if they aren't connected in any way to the D10 it still happens. So I guess it's not coming from the RCA output but from the USB. Since I have everything connected to the same power strip, this is most probably current/noise coming from the receiver -> computer -> USB connection -> D10.

I'll try connecting the the computer and the amp to separate power outlets to see if it fixes it.

UPDATE: This is wrong, it is indeed coming into the RCA outputs. See this post https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...asurements-of-topping-d10-dac.2470/post-93650

Are you using the USB cable of D10 accessories?
If so, I suggest you replace it with another USB cable.
I am experiencing the trouble you reported. The cause was on the USB cable.
The accessory USB cable is very weak to noise induction from the surroundings.
I hope my experience will serve you.

 

[Timbo2]

The O2 seems to be a very solid design to me (I have owned one for several years), but you apparently have a list of deficiencies, to which you have added this one. Could you share that list here?

Are you sure you've got the right guy? I like my O2 and would recommend it with a couple of caveats.

From a functional perspective I have two issues.

1. The one we just discovered
2. Hysteresis with the battery cut off circuit

Edit:
3. Not a personal issue, but if I remember correctly this has a 10 ohm input impedance. The spec for home gear is 50 ohm and I’ve read some sources don’t like the lower impedance. This was a conscious design choice for slightly less noise.

The other issues were simply comments about the nature of its "hand made" nature compared to a more commercial product.

I don't think I've ever bad mouthed the product. Can you point me to what specific set of comments has lead you this conclusion?

 

[έχω δίκιο]

Can you point me to what specific set of comments has lead you this conclusion?

The specific comment is this one:
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ts-of-topping-d10-dac.2470/page-29#post-93619

In it you wrote:

I’d agree this is more an O2 issue. I think we can add another deficiency to the design here.

I took that to mean that you had a list of deficiencies to which you intended to add 'another' one.

 

[Timbo2]

The specific comment is this one:
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ts-of-topping-d10-dac.2470/page-29#post-93619

In it you wrote:

I took that to mean that you had a list of deficiencies to which you intended to add 'another' one.

Nothing like a laundry list! More a wish list, fix the battery, add one more level of gain, and a better power/charging circuit.

I respect the design trade-offs that were made by NwAvGuy - he designed to a price and the ability for an "average Joe" to build the thing.

 

[Ron Texas]

One would think an amplifier would not produce voltage at it's inputs and that a DAC (or disc player for that matter) would not be disturbed by voltage at it's analogue outputs. The O2 is very popular and I have not heard of this with other DAC's. Transient noises when the computer is booting or shutting down are common with other DAC's. It's acceptable if they are not loud. I once had a Modi 2U which sent shotgun blasts to my speakers. Schitt said I needed a preamp so I could turn down the volume, LOL.

I wonder how all the reviewers who wrote glowing reports on the M2U missed that?

 

[Hemicrusher]

One would think an amplifier would not produce voltage at it's inputs and that a DAC (or disc player for that matter) would not be disturbed by voltage at it's analogue outputs. The O2 is very popular and I have not heard of this with other DAC's. Transient noises when the computer is booting or shutting down are common with other DAC's. It's acceptable if they are not loud. I once had a Modi 2U which sent shotgun blasts to my speakers. Schitt said I needed a preamp so I could turn down the volume, LOL.

I wonder how all the reviewers who wrote glowing reports on the M2U missed that?

I have a Modi 2U also and it is pretty silent during reboots etc. Just a slight click......Not using speaker, just headphones. As for the D10.....this clicking still might be a protection relay even on the RCA's.

 

[Dorian]

Hey guys,

If you feed the D10 a DSD signal via usb, then will the D10 convert the DSD signal to PCM and output the digital signal via the SPDIF coaxial and optical? I'm asking this since I see that the SPDIF is limited to PCM (24bits max 44.1kHz - 192kHz).

 

[Ron Texas]

I have a Modi 2U also and it is pretty silent during reboots etc. Just a slight click......Not using speaker, just headphones. As for the D10.....this clicking still might be a protection relay even on the RCA's.

Schitt must have fixed the reboot shotgun blast on the Modi 2U since I had one.

 

[DWPress]

Well, my Modi 2U works just a treat but my D10 is no longer working at all for me. I realize that I am in a major minority here and blame the computer for the dirty USB power but now that it is no longer playing anything just thought I'd pipe up again....

 

[Ron Texas]

Well, my Modi 2U works just a treat but my D10 is no longer working at all for me. I realize that I am in a major minority here and blame the computer for the dirty USB power but now that it is no longer playing anything just thought I'd pipe up again....

I wonder if the muting relay got stuck because of voltage from an amplifier pusing back to the d10's audio outputs.

 

[amirm]

Good news. I contacted Topping about the backfeed issue. They say they have indeed replicated the problem a firmware fix is coming this Friday! Apparently they can reprogram the Xmos chip to be more resilient against such interference. Same fixes were issued in the firmware update for D20 and DX7s. The fix for D10 was more complicated and hence the later release.

 

[Hemicrusher]

Good news. I contacted Topping about the backfeed issue. They say they have indeed replicated the problem a firmware fix is coming this Friday! Apparently they can reprogram the Xmos chip to be more resilient against such interference. Same fixes were issued in the firmware update for D20 and DX7s. The fix for D10 was more complicated and hence the later release.

Nice! So a simple fix.........

 

[DWPress]

Ok, another follow up. I tried the D10 with Macbook Pro, a Win7 PC and an old Mac Mini and it functioned fine. I plug it back into my main work computer and audio command center, the problematic iMac, and it works again.

Was looking to upgrade the 2013 iMac anyway, stuck in the Mac ecosystem with $$$ in pro apps and not enthusiastic about any current offering so will scour fleabay for a decent used machine instead of audio goodies a bit.

Wasn't trying to bash Topping or the D10 with any of my posts here, just one man's experience down a bumpy road...

 

[amirm]

Wasn't trying to bash Topping or the D10 with any of my posts here, just one man's experience down a bumpy road...

Feel free to post any complaints about Topping. That is how problems get resolved and any rate, we don't run a fan club for any product.

 

[DWPress]

Thanks Amir. Just feel I've taken up a fair amount of space on this thread for problems that, in the end, had nothing to do with the product in question. Someone might need that modded USB cable down the road though.

 

[Hemicrusher]

Thanks Amir. Just feel I've taken up a fair amount of space on this thread for problems that, in the end, had nothing to do with the product in question. Someone might need that modded USB cable down the road though.

I see no reason for you to apologize. People should be able to critically think for themselves and follow the thread wherever it goes.

 

[douteiful]

Good news. I contacted Topping about the backfeed issue. They say they have indeed replicated the problem a firmware fix is coming this Friday! Apparently they can reprogram the Xmos chip to be more resilient against such interference. Same fixes were issued in the firmware update for D20 and DX7s. The fix for D10 was more complicated and hence the later release.

Wow, thank you! Since it seemed a hardware related issue I wasn't faithful of it being fixable through firmware, so good news indeed. I really appreciate your work.