Atoll DAC200 Signature - Review & Measurements (DAC)

[Mtbf]

I have to say however that I'm very happy with it , fed by ROON using Bluesound Node 2i, Pioneer N70AE and Squeezebox Touch as streamers.

Personally? If you’re happy, don’t let this bother you, just stay happy with it. I also own an amplifier that doesn’t measure that well, but it still sounds great to me, and that’s what counts in the end. Apparently, the not so good measurements don’t noticeably affect the sound quality, thus I’m certainly not going to sell it for this reason. And it doesn’t sound any less than some of the very best measuring gear out there, that I also own. Would I buy it again, knowing this? No, highly unlikely, good measurements are a prerequisite for me when buying anything new (thanks to the work of Amir, Erin, Gene), btw without resorting to number fetishism. There are other factors that also are important, such as looks, ease of use (e.g. the quality of the remote), component quality, reliability, warranty, service, and, above all (for me), load independence/current reserve. The latter does not always seem to get the attention it deserves and can certainly affect sound quality.

 

[CedarX]

Almost ok with you, but I 'm not sure good measurements mean good sound ( cf tube amps etc etc)

Good measurements = audibly transparent. Studies show that people tend to prefer "audibly transparent", but the same way you may prefer a heavily photoshoped picture rather than the original subject, you may prefer a non-transparent, euphonic sound, for example "tube" sound. Measurements and preferences are not incompatible, they just need to be carefully stated in the comments.
Another issue with the DAC200 Signature were the misleading, or flat out lying, spec. I don't see any circumstance where this would be acceptable.

 

[DrCWO]

Almost ok with you, but I 'm not sure good measurements mean good sound ( cf tube amps etc etc)

Well I'm an electrical engineer and I think the technically best amplifier would be a amplifying piece of cable where the output is exactly the amplified input with nothing added or subtracted. I think we can all agree on that

Since this cannot be achieved, the next thing to recommend would be an amplifier where the things added or removed are so small that they are below the threshold of hearing. This goal can only be achieved with low noise and low distortion. So that's the theory, and it says that the better the measurements, the closer the amp comes to the ideal amplifying piece of cable we'd like to get.

But now personal taste comes into play. Maybe someone likes hearing less detail that's masked by increased noise. Maybe he thinks it creates a nicer musical flow in his ears that isn't disturbed by micro details. Maybe someone also likes to hear some nicely added euphonious distortions that enrich the musical perception (both we measure with tube amplifiers). I also have a turntable with Shure V15-V-MR. It is a sound machine with many harmonics and a high level of noise compared to digital reproduction. Sometimes I even enjoy listening to LPs, knowing that the music is subjected to heavy sound processing.

The good thing is that you can fill your hi-fi rack with things you enjoy listening to. I don't want to claim that if there's less noise or less nice-sounding distortion, it sounds better for everyone. Use what you like, you can do it!

But here we're making objective measurements, and a lot of the people in the forum are experienced listeners who believe they like it better if there's no noise and distortion. But maybe this is their (and mine) personal taste.

My observation is that the deeper one goes into this type of high quality gear, the more interested one becomes in having high SINAD devices. A friend of mine is a fan of AVM devices. Recently I brought my RME-ADI/NCx500 combo to him and he was streaming from his Roon Core and listening to his favorite tracks in his listening Room with his speakers. After a very short time, he too understood that this sounds better in every respect.

But we are not missionaries here claiming to know the absolute truth. What we know is what we measure, and many of us like the result of devices with a high SINAD

All I wrote about amplifier here is for sure also true for DACs.

Best DrCWO

 

[DrCWO]

Another issue with the DAC200 Signature were the misleading, or flat out lying, spec. I don't see any circumstance where this would be acceptable.

You are so right! This is plain and simple cheating on customers.

 

[MacCali]

I'm on par with you on that: good measurements should be the basis.

Again, the measurements being perfect isn’t the real issue in my book. It’s just the price vs competition. I mean now we have almost a large number of competent dacs on the market for the sub 500 USD range in fact some which are near flawless.

The price you paid isn’t bad, and honestly could possibly give Atoll a pass if they do not own an analyzer. Yet at the same time it’s not like dacs are new technology and there should be some level of RND out there which should be known amongst the manufacturers that certain things should be done to avoid certain pitfalls. I’m not a designer so merely assuming.

It may have simply been a cost effective solution for the company or they had no clue it was present. Clearly the listening test would have given this unit a pass. So why not enjoy it if nothing is really standing out as audibly incorrect. I’m guessing this isn’t your first dac so you would have switched it out for something you did prefer, if you own multiple dacs.

Edit: I see that @CedarX pointed out misleading measurements. What is typical of many companies is they post the best hypothetical measurements the chip is able to produce but how they implement the dac will create variations in measurements. I think even with topping and other chifi companies they typically hit about a few db less than the chip manufacturer measured potential. So it can come off as deceptive but a lot of companies do it, and simply it is marketing.

 

[VintageFlanker]

The price you paid isn’t bad, and honestly could possibly give Atoll a pass if they do not own an analyzer.

Except they do have an Audio Precision.

 

[MacCali]

So basically they are bsing @pistache

This has been a long time situation with audio equipment manufacturers. This is why a lot of people hate Amir and honestly their claims that it does sound amazing regardless of measurements is just the poop they use to cover the underlying truth that they are overcharging customers.

Also not only Amir but chifi in general. As much as ethics come in play and I don’t appreciate the situation or conditions that some people live in as worker in china which makes chifi typically so cheap. These people design in Europe and manufacture in china at potentially a higher cost nothing really can justify the bs.

But they just hate chifi cause it’s creating a lot of people to become objective, which in turn hurts their pockets cause they want to feed you a diner steak at a luxury steak house price.

 

[Jasperous]

So basically they are bsing @pistache

This has been a long time situation with audio equipment manufacturers. This is why a lot of people hate Amir and honestly their claims that it does sound amazing regardless of measurements is just the poop they use to cover the underlying truth that they are overcharging customers.

Also not only Amir but chifi in general. As much as ethics come in play and I don’t appreciate the situation or conditions that some people live in as worker in china which makes chifi typically so cheap. These people design in Europe and manufacture in china at potentially a higher cost nothing really can justify the bs.

But they just hate chifi cause it’s creating a lot of people to become objective, which in turn hurts their pockets cause they want to feed you a diner steak at a luxury steak house price.

Spot on!

 

[pistache]

Well since our last posts I've carefully listened to my DAC ATOLL, with various genres of music, at different sampling rates from FLAC to 192kHz, at different levels and from different streamers (BlueSound Node 2i, Pioneer N70AE, Squeezebox Tpuch with dedicated power station).

All I can say is that, on my reference high end system, I enjoy very much the music I listen to; period.

I've read all your posts, I believe in your measurements, I admit it's not normal that ATOLL doesn't measure his DAC or bullshits the specs giving only what the chip is able to produce, .... but to me it's probably not that much impacting the quality of the sound we are (or I am) able to ear.

I'll keep this DAC ...until I'll want to change.

For the record, it works perfectly, no pops when changing frequency or inputs, and moreover, 3 coax+3 optical + AES/EBU ( for my McIntosh drive).

PS; one question: What is in your opinion the best all in one Streamer/DAC/ on the market today?

 

[CedarX]

All I can say is that …… I enjoy very much the music I listen to; period.

I believe in your measurements ….... but to me it's probably not that much impacting the quality of the sound we are (or I am) able to ear.

The first point is what really matters !!!

The second point means you understand what you got with the Atoll DAC and can express an (your!) opinion

 

[vicenzo_del_paris]

Well since our last posts I've carefully listened to my DAC ATOLL, with various genres of music, at different sampling rates from FLAC to 192kHz, at different levels and from different streamers (BlueSound Node 2i, Pioneer N70AE, Squeezebox Tpuch with dedicated power station).

All I can say is that, on my reference high end system, I enjoy very much the music I listen to; period.

I've read all your posts, I believe in your measurements, I admit it's not normal that ATOLL doesn't measure his DAC or bullshits the specs giving only what the chip is able to produce, .... but to me it's probably not that much impacting the quality of the sound we are (or I am) able to ear.

I'll keep this DAC ...until I'll want to change.

For the record, it works perfectly, no pops when changing frequency or inputs, and moreover, 3 coax+3 optical + AES/EBU ( for my McIntosh drive).

PS; one question: What is in your opinion the best all in one Streamer/DAC/ on the market today?

Nobody said Atoll DAC sounds horrible
Keep your DAC, there are no reasons to change if you're happy with.

What people are saying here is:
- wrong advertised specs
- high price for a bellow average performance in terms of engineering as you can have better "performance" for way much cheaper, knowing that in any case, the difference is not audible.

I like Atoll products look and it is always nice to privilege local manufacturer when you can.
I owned few year ago some Atoll amps (in100se and av100) and I was happy with them.
But I moved to class D (hypex) for efficiency, space, and more power for lower price.

 

[AnalogSteph]

The looks of the output stage alone should make you suspicious. With its handful of TO-92s, trimpots and film caps, it looks like it belongs in a small-scale "audiophile" product of the 1980s, not like something that should be complementing a 2016 high-end DAC chip. I'm guessing it's a 2-transistor opamp (think Sziklai) for I/V followed by a buffer of sorts? I'm getting major "design by agenda" vibes for sure.

 

[pistache]

The looks of the output stage alone should make you suspicious. With its handful of TO-92s, trimpots and film caps, it looks like it belongs in a small-scale "audiophile" product of the 1980s, not like something that should be complementing a 2016 high-end DAC chip. I'm guessing it's a 2-transistor opamp (think Sziklai) for I/V followed by a buffer of sorts? I'm getting major "design by agenda" vibes for sure.

I cannot comment on this, I'm not an electronic engineer; would you be kind to explain what does it mean please?

 

[pistache]

Nobody said Atoll DAC sounds horrible
Keep your DAC, there are no reasons to change if you're happy with.

What people are saying here is:
- wrong advertised specs
- high price for a bellow average performance in terms of engineering as you can have better "performance" for way much cheaper, knowing that in any case, the difference is not audible.

I like Atoll products look and it is always nice to privilege local manufacturer when you can.
I owned few year ago some Atoll amps (in100se and av100) and I was happy with them.
But I moved to class D (hypex) for efficiency, space, and more power for lower price.

I'm ok with that; I paid 700 euros, not 1800; I'm very satisfied with the sound and with the coax and AES/EBU inputs (I don't use optical, no need).
Wrong advertised specs are for sure a problem.

If I find a all in one DAC/streamer which could compete with my combo, I would eventually resell, it could let more place in the rack; I've heard from Eversolo A6, an advice?

 

[MacCali]

Well since our last posts I've carefully listened to my DAC ATOLL, with various genres of music, at different sampling rates from FLAC to 192kHz, at different levels and from different streamers (BlueSound Node 2i, Pioneer N70AE, Squeezebox Tpuch with dedicated power station).

All I can say is that, on my reference high end system, I enjoy very much the music I listen to; period.

I've read all your posts, I believe in your measurements, I admit it's not normal that ATOLL doesn't measure his DAC or bullshits the specs giving only what the chip is able to produce, .... but to me it's probably not that much impacting the quality of the sound we are (or I am) able to ear.

I'll keep this DAC ...until I'll want to change.

For the record, it works perfectly, no pops when changing frequency or inputs, and moreover, 3 coax+3 optical + AES/EBU ( for my McIntosh drive).

PS; one question: What is in your opinion the best all in one Streamer/DAC/ on the market today?

Eversolo Master Edition DMP A6 or something along those lines.

As we stated it’s hard to notice anything bad. I am not sure if flanker made any statements, I believe he did give his subjective opinion on the sound.

It’s not a bad dac, but it’s bad for the price; our previous discussion.

You also don’t need to feel like you got ripped as there are way worse scenarios out in the world of audio. Just enjoy your music and neglect this negativity. We just want the best for our patrons in both categories, we feel that objective results provide subjective pleasure. We are not here to laugh or cry at anyone.

I say these statements in a generalized sense it’s not strictly about you directly.

What I can tell you directly is that, I’m sure you know this point, I am on the objective side. I try to tell people on here being an owner an which had less than -40db sinad, grotesque measurements to our standards.

It’s definitely listenable. I bought it for 20 dollars US. I used it before I knew the measurements and I still use it now after these findings.

Also for comparison my entire reference system is nearly miracle measurements so I do have a way to compare excellent and poor.

 

[pistache]

Wisely said.

 

[MacCali]

Wisely said.

I will note, based on Amir’s thoughts previously, the dac portion of the chain is the most crucial so my findings can be skewed with other products or this may strictly apply to amps. But it’s interesting just to know, if you are an objective lad or lady, both spectrums before you start to be whole heartedly anything.

By no means do I imply that a horrible measuring product is equal to or superior to something better.

The key is it’s surprising that the difference is not as bad as what it may seem. At the very same time these are the things that these big companies capitalize on for profits and 95% of people will find it acceptable.

I’ve seen this also with the Nelson pass band camp amp and a member on here posted an entire thread on this topic in regards to a product he measured which was way down but found the product to be alright.

Now hop on board the yellow submarine!

 

[pistache]

If you want to know, I'm not an absolute objectivist nor I am an absolute subjectivist; I'm not an engineer, I'm in the medical domain (I'm a Medical Laboratory Director) and I do have a scientific reasoning; as everybody knows, medicine is not an exact science (old debate with my father in law who is an engineer).

I am first of all a music lover, who loves to feel emotions when listening to music.

That's why perhaps I don't cut decibels in four, and I trust my ears.

 

[Snoopy]

If you want to know, I'm not an absolute objectivist nor I am an absolute subjectivist; I'm not an engineer, I'm in the medical domain (I'm a Medical Laboratory Director) and I do have a scientific reasoning; as everybody knows, medicine is not an exact science (old debate with my father in law who is an engineer).

I am first of all a music lover, who loves to feel emotions when listening to music.

That's why perhaps I don't cut decibels in four, and I trust my ears.

If you are happy with it that's all that really matters . Everything else will possibly just turn in a unhealthy obsession.

 

[VintageFlanker]

I am first of all a music lover, who loves to feel emotions when listening to music.

Except emotions, musicality, or whatever belong to Music itself, not to Music reproduction.

Hi-Fi has nothing to do with music creation, nor art (you read that right).