Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC

[έχω δίκιο]

Flashed D10 last night. Non-functional this morning!

I flashed my D10 (s.n. starting with 1805) last night. It worked fine after flashing. But when I got up this morning, it was now working. It had a dimly lit period and nothing else. I had not unplugged or replugged anything. I had not switched power on the amp, a Parasound Zamp v.3.

My computer, an iMac Pro, had been on overnight and there were no other problems with the computer, OS, or other peripherals. The computer is on an enterprise grade UPS. When I tried to play audio, the app was satisfied that it was playing but the D10 display remained at one dimly lit period. Swapping sampling rates had no effect. I could select other output devices and they played fine. Swapped back to the D10, and it was dead every time.

After disconnecting the USB cable and reconnecting it, the D10 returned to functionality.

 

[audiobill]

Flashed D10 last night. Non-functional this morning!

I flashed my D10 (s.n. starting with 1805) last night. It worked fine after flashing. But when I got up this morning, it was now working. It had a dimly lit period and nothing else. I had not unplugged or replugged anything. I had not switched power on the amp, a Parasound Zamp v.3.

My computer, an iMac Pro, had been on overnight and there were no other problems with the computer, OS, or other peripherals. The computer is on an enterprise grade UPS. When I tried to play audio, the app was satisfied that it was playing but the D10 display remained at one dimly lit period. Swapping sampling rates had no effect. I could select other output devices and they played fine. Swapped back to the D10, and it was dead every time.

After disconnecting the USB cable and reconnecting it, the D10 returned to functionality.

Does your computer sleep?

 

[Timbo2]

Flashed D10 last night. Non-functional this morning!

I flashed my D10 (s.n. starting with 1805) last night. It worked fine after flashing. But when I got up this morning, it was now working. It had a dimly lit period and nothing else. I had not unplugged or replugged anything. I had not switched power on the amp, a Parasound Zamp v.3.

My computer, an iMac Pro, had been on overnight and there were no other problems with the computer, OS, or other peripherals. The computer is on an enterprise grade UPS. When I tried to play audio, the app was satisfied that it was playing but the D10 display remained at one dimly lit period. Swapping sampling rates had no effect. I could select other output devices and they played fine. Swapped back to the D10, and it was dead every time.

After disconnecting the USB cable and reconnecting it, the D10 returned to functionality.

The blank dim screen with one dot was the same issue I had with my Nvidia Shield TV. It muted the HDMI and seemed to think it was outputting sound to the DAC, but no sound and nothing on the display.

I know nothing about Macs, but can you disable power saving or test it with a powered USB hub?

 

[Krunok]

Flashed D10 last night. Non-functional this morning!

I flashed my D10 (s.n. starting with 1805) last night. It worked fine after flashing. But when I got up this morning, it was now working. It had a dimly lit period and nothing else. I had not unplugged or replugged anything. I had not switched power on the amp, a Parasound Zamp v.3.

My computer, an iMac Pro, had been on overnight and there were no other problems with the computer, OS, or other peripherals. The computer is on an enterprise grade UPS. When I tried to play audio, the app was satisfied that it was playing but the D10 display remained at one dimly lit period. Swapping sampling rates had no effect. I could select other output devices and they played fine. Swapped back to the D10, and it was dead every time.

After disconnecting the USB cable and reconnecting it, the D10 returned to functionality.

Did you have any issues with previous version of the firmware?

 

[audiobill]

Did you have any issues with previous version of the firmware?

How can it be a issue if it worked after flash? Somebody went to sleep and needed to be connected again to wake up.

 

[Hemicrusher]

Since OSX and Android are forks of Unix/Linux I wonder if there is a USB power issue. My Win10 box has zero issues with the D10. When it is off the D10 is 100% off.

BTW, I did the update for giggles.

 

[Krunok]

How can it be a issue if it worked after flash? Somebody went to sleep and needed to be connected again to wake up.

Described behaviour is an issue - if Mac and/or D10 went to sleep it should still be able to wake up D10 without reconnecting the USB

 

[έχω δίκιο]

Does your computer sleep?

Yes it does. It's an iMac Pro running High Sierra 10.13.4. When it slept prior to the D10 firmware upgrade, the D10 remained fully functional. And it's connected to a powered hub.

The blank dim screen with one dot was the same issue I had with my Nvidia Shield TV. It muted the HDMI and seemed to think it was outputting sound to the DAC, but no sound and nothing on the display.

I know nothing about Macs, but can you disable power saving or test it with a powered USB hub?

It is connected through a powered hub.

Did you have any issues with previous version of the firmware?

Nope. Worked perfectly without a single glitch. Always a valid sampling rate displayed.

How can it be a issue if it worked after flash?

Because it stopped working overnight.

Somebody went to sleep and needed to be connected again to wake up.

Then the D10 is at fault. Any USB device that goes away and doesn't come back when a computer sleeps is malfunctioning.

Since OSX and Android are forks of Unix/Linux I wonder if there is a USB power issue. My Win10 box has zero issues with the D10. When it is off the D10 is 100% off.

Nope. First off, it was plugged into a powered USB 3.0 hub. Secondly, macOS is perfectly behaves with regards to USB -- I've got a USB 3.0 4TB drive directly attached to the iMac Pro USB port it and it never has any issues. By comparison, my Windows 7 and 10 boxes are messes, needing drivers to even function properly with the D10.

 

[Krunok]

Nope. Worked perfectly without a single glitch. Always a valid sampling rate displayed.

Well, you're an engineer so you know that old saying "if it ain't broken.."

If I were you I would reflash the old firmware, leave it as it was and enjoy my music.

 

[έχω δίκιο]

Well, you're an engineer so you know that old saying "if it ain't broken.."

I've seen way too many firmware upgrades that admit to fixing one thing and secretly fix several others.

If I were you I would reflash the old firmware, leave it as it was and enjoy my music.

Sounds like a good plan. Now all I need is a copy of the old firmware, which Topping does not have available for download.

 

[Krunok]

I've seen way too many firmware upgrades that admit to fixing one thing and secretly fix several others.

And I'v seen too many firmwares fixing one thing and screwing several others. For that reason I don't upgrade firmware if I don't have to.

Sounds like a good plan. Now all I need is a copy of the old firmware, which Topping does not have available for download.

Ask @Timbo2, he got old firmware from Topping and successfully reverted to previous state.

 

[έχω δίκιο]

And I'v seen too many firmwares fixing one thing and screwing several others. For that reason I don't upgrade firmware if I don't have to.

I had WiFi router firmware that seemed to work fine -- until it cooked an RF chip. Manufacturer had secretly fixed that in an update that mentioned nothing about it.

Ask @Timbo2, he got old firmware from Topping and successfully reverted to previous state.

I did ask him, but his firmware was labelled for the 1804 series and mine is an 1805, so I agree with him -- give Topping some time rather than risk bricking it. It's not critical. I'm listening to it right now and it's working fine. If I have to U.P./R.P. each morning for a while, I'll live (actually, my USB hub has per-port switches I can toggle).

 

[Krunok]

I had WiFi router firmware that seemed to work fine -- until it cooked an RF chip. Manufacturer had secretly fixed that in an update that mentioned nothing about it.

That is an example of poor support policy which didn't announce critical upgrade - I don't really see that happening here with this upgrade for D10.

In fact, that is the thing I definitely don't like with this upgrade - Topping never explained what are they fixing with it.

They also never explained why 1804 and 1805 have different firmware so we are left to speculate about hardware differences.

 

[έχω δίκιο]

That is an example of poor support policy which didn't announce critical upgrade - I don't really see that happening here with this upgrade for D10.

Topping's software shows v6.F2 as the firmware version both before and after the firmware upgrade, which doesn't fill me with confidence about their attention to detail and policies for releases.

In fact, that is the thing I definitely don't like with this upgrade - Topping never explained what are they fixing with it.

From their website:

D10 firmware update
Date: 2018-8-13 17:44
Firmware update of D10
Version: 18G
This firmware improves USB anti-interference performance, we recommended D10 users to upgrade.
SN number start with 1710: Download from dropbox
SN number start with 1801 to 1805: Download from dropbox

They also never explained why 1804 and 1805 have different firmware so we are left to speculate about hardware differences.

Or we could speculate that sn. 18xx all has the same hardware and the 04 and 05 identify which firmware they shipped with. Or it could be identifying the production run. Or it could be the hardware, as you say. We just don't have enough information to know. That said, it's not at all unusual for the manufacturers to not spell out hardware changes they make.

 

[Krunok]

Topping's software shows v6.F2 as the firmware version both before and after the firmware upgrade, which doesn't fill me with confidence about their attention to detail and policies for releases.

From their website:


Or we could speculate that sn. 18xx all has the same hardware and the 04 and 05 identify which firmware they shipped with. Or it could be identifying the production run. Or it could be the hardware, as you say. We just don't have enough information to know. That said, it's not at all unusual for the manufacturers to not spell out hardware changes they make.

I agree with you - there's many things we don't know abut this upgrade. And, as I was having no trouble with previous version, that was precisely my reason not to apply it.

 

[Timbo2]

I agree with you - there's many things we don't know abut this upgrade. And, as I was having no trouble with previous version, that was precisely my reason not to apply it.

Given I was using an O2 and could/can reset the D10 at will I felt compelled to take one for the team .

I’m fortunate that I was able to revert and even if I couldn’t it is mostly used in a Windows environment.

My advice is that unless you have serious reboot or lock up issues is to pass on this. More interesting is if this has moved to production and is the firmware on new units.

 

[έχω δίκιο]

audiobill called it right on the D10 problem -- it is sleep-related. But it doesn't appear to be related to power.

If I put my Mac to sleep, the D10 display will initially show three hyphens (replacing the previously shown sampling rate). The hyphens will eventually be replaced by a single, dimly-lit decimal point. And that's all she wrote, sound-wise -- until a USB unplug/replug. Interestingly, querying the USB for a system report with the USB in that state shows that the D10 is still there as far as the system is concerned.

I tried this in both a USB 3.0 powered hub and directly connected to my iMac Pro's USB 3.0 port. The same behavior appeared on both, so it's not due to power going away.

I did some further testing, moving the D10 to my Windows 10 system (a DIY PC I built with a an AMD Ryzen) plugged into a motherboard-supplied USB 3.0 port. I also changed the USB cable at the same time. Sleeping the Windows 10 system results in identical behavior -- three hyphens eventually replaced by a single, dimly-lit decimal point. Waking the Windows 10 PC also does not bring the D10 back to life -- same as the Mac.

It looks like Topping has introduced an ugly bug that they need to fix.

 

[Hemicrusher]

On my Win 10 box, Gigabyte Z170 w/ i5 6600k, putting the comp to sleep shuts off the D10. Acts the same as a shutdown.

 

[bakker_be]

On my Win 10 box, Gigabyte Z170 w/ i5 6600k, putting the comp to sleep shuts off the D10. Acts the same as a shutdown.

Did you also "upgrade" the firmware?

 

[Krunok]

On my Win 10 box, Gigabyte Z170 w/ i5 6600k, putting the comp to sleep shuts off the D10. Acts the same as a shutdown.

That's because USB port of your comp doesn't provide voltage when your comp is put to sleep. That behaviour varies from comp to comp, and even from port to port on the same comp, as there are cases when USB ports still provides voltage when comp is put to sleep.